Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

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Rutland Manor
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Rutland Manor » 05 Jul 2009, 17:17

linny2 wrote:
Rutland Manor wrote:Linny, I am glad that you think highly of Smilerz because she and her husband have just spent the week end of 4th and 5th July 2009 here at Rutland Manor carrying out a full and thorough inspection of the entire facility and the dogs and puppies on the property. They also inspected our office records health testing documents etc., and saw that we actually DO the things that we say we do.

They brought all seven of their beautiful Golden Doodles with them and their dogs had a lovely time romping around in the grassed exercise areas that so many are saying don't exist here.

They have promised this forum a full report on what they found here, and I would hope that when they do this, you may be gracious enough to offer me a public apology on this forum.

Kind regards,
Beverley
I have not commented here or elsewhere about RM's kennels, puppies, testing, or facilities, although others may have done so in this thread. The concern I expressed was for RMs practice of back-to-back (ie consecutive) breeding, as follows:
linny2 wrote:Rutland Manor proudly state that they breed their dogs back-to-back, and admit they've bred girls up to at least 6 years of age.
If this is proven to be incorrect (seemingly unlikely, given that RM have already admitted to doing so here) then of course I will cheerfully apologise.

Again, I continue to hope that this practice has now been abolished, and would welcome their confirmation to that effect.
Linny, you joined in on the attack by adding fuel to the fire. The original issue was not breeding practices but the "hell hole" that Debra Tranter claims she found here.

I will say this once and once only and I will not be drawn into debate on the breeding back to back issue with anyone, especially those who are operating under misguided emotional misinformation.

If someone doesn't agree with it, that's fine. You are entitled to your own opinions, even though I suspect that few if any of you have any real evidence to back up that it is harmful to the females themselves. Of course, much depends on common sense, KNOWING how to assess physical and emotional health in a canine, and other factors that require in depth research.

If any of you have an open mind consider these points -

1. Mother nature decrees the frequency with which a female of any species cycles and is receptive to breeding. Some wild dog breeds for instance and some domestic breeds cycle late (first cycle at up to two years of age) and only once a year. For these breeds common sense says they are not designed to breed more than once a year.

2. Cows have their calf inside of them for nine months. They are re-bred each and every year even if they have delivered twins. Why? Because it is the way Nature intended it to be for the health of the cow herself.

2. Alpacas, Llamas, Sheep, Goats, and Mares have young every year. Equine Veterinary Reproductive Specialists usually recommend that once a mare commences her breeding life she be bred annually without the mis-named "rest" in between. When she is "rested" her muscles and ligaments tighten and her next birthing process is not as easy as it would have been had she been re-bred. Healthy mares often breed up to twenty six or twenty eight years of age and remain happy and healthy because they are intended to be mothers. Many top Horse Studs re-breed their mares on the foal heat, which is ten days following the birth. That sounds horrific to we humans, but many mares 'take' best and are most receptive to the stallion at this time. Sounds terrible to a human, but we are different species.

3. I have a three year old filly who has recently had surgery for cancer on her back. The surgery left a hole the size of a dinner plate (it has since filled in thank goodness) but the biopsy showed that the cancer has already invaded her lymphatic system, so my precious filly's days are numbered. the Equine Reproductive Specialist recommended that even though she is just a three year old, I should put her in foal. The reason? Because the surges of hormones that go through a female's body when fertile, feed the cancer, and at best, produce the acidic environment that is favorable to the onset of a cancer even if it is not already present.

4. The information about back to back breeding which was on my website was outdated (I had forgotten to go into my HUGE website and update it when the legislation was changed, I 'think' in 2006 or 2007. We were never informed of this legislation which in itself is a beaurocratic mess up. Surely registered breeders should be informed of new legislation. Up until that time I had not been outside the legislation. The kennel clubs had always had their rules, but not being a member they did not apply to me.

Legislation is often far behind the times as far as education and research is concerned. For instance it is law for all dogs to be vaccinated on an annual basis, whether they need it or not.

HOW UNEDUCATED IS THIS!

Vaccinosis is well documented and quite common these days as the build up of vaccines gets stronger and stronger in the systems of our dogs and their progeny. Increasing numbers of dogs are suffering from vaccinosis and other related diseases seldom heard of before this ridiculous legal requirement of annual vaccinations came into force.

How many dogs have to suffer and die before these morons take the trouble to find out what they are really doing to our dogs? How long will it take for them to do the research and find out that breeding females are designed to "breed" whether they sleep on their master's bed and with the kids or if they are herding sheep on a farm. If they are not bred then they should be speyed so that the rush of hormone isn't taking place. It's really very simple.

The whole point of this rather long post, is that many kind hearted people make assumptions based on lack of any real experience nor understanding on the variables that dictate animal best husbandry practices.

You can jump on me all you like, but I will not respond. I have said everything I have to say on this subject.

Animals are my life and love and have always been since I was a tiny child. I would never do the tiniest thing to harm nor hurt them, not even their feelings. I have bred dogs for well over fifty years, and observed and shared in the experiences of many breeders over this time.

I have my own opinions which will not change. I will not vaccinate my dogs each year when Phizer states in its own scientific paper that the efficacy of its canine vaccines is at least thirty six months. I will continue to perform titer tests and vaccinate when indicated. I would go to gaol before I would take the risks of causing vaccinosis to any of my dogs.

Ask anyone who has ever experienced vaccinosis and believe me it is heartbreaking, and cruel to the extreme to nurse and to watch. Many never recover.

I guess by now you have realised that I have very strong views all of which are based on my lifelong love for all animals and in particular my dogs and horses. I behave according to the dictates of MY OWN conscience and always in the best interests of any animals who own me.

Incidentally, more misinformation which has been posted on I believe Care2 (Carole g has had her say there also) that I went to court!!!!

HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH?

The Baw Baw shire summonsed me for "running an illegal business". They had accepted my money for transfer of the business and renewal twelve months later, but not given me my '"piece of paper". I was pleased that I had been charged, because at last I had a public arena to show them up for what they are.

HOWEVER

Two days before the court date of 5th May 2009 The Baw Baw Shire WITHDREW all charges without warning. Obviously their barrister once he'd seen the REAL situation, advised them not to continue. They would have made fools of themselves and been open to charges themselves if everything they had done to me came to light in a court room.

YOu see??? You can NOT believe these things just because 'so and so' usually with an alias, says it was so!

Beverley
Beverley Manners
Rutland Manor Australia
Co Founder of the Australian Labradoodle

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Carole g
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Carole g » 05 Jul 2009, 17:49

Rutland Manor, I do not post and nor am I a member on Care2, there are two Carole G's on there, one in Australia, one in Florida. I can't find out more as I can't log in. We are all too common, I fear.

I still hope and expect some clarification as promised on Monday re the Rutlands Snuggles litters.
ALWAYS visit the premises and see mum with pup. There are no excuses!
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Lizzie B
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Lizzie B » 06 Jul 2009, 14:51

I found the new post on Labradoodle Rehoming, Expert advice needed, very interesting,I was quite suprised.

smilerz
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by smilerz » 07 Jul 2009, 02:43

Hi Guys,

Yes we are back and we had the most fantastic time although a gruelling 15hr journey home but we are home, we didn't want to leave but needs must and Adam has to go to work.

We had never met Beverley until the Saturday afternoon and we hadn't even spoken to her. The first conversation was to let her know we had arrived and were driving through the centre of Melbourne as the Sat Nav had sent us through it, wonderful. This was the first time I had been to Melbourne and the last too, far too busy for me.

After a gruelling 15hr drive down to Victoria it was great to finally meet Beverley, her staff and all the dogs.

We went around the premises and met all the dogs, pups etc and had the most fantastic time.

I spent 3 hrs this morning on here explaining every detail of every part of our visit only to find it has all disapeared when I hit submit button so I have had to rewrite it all again. Maybe it was too long.

Anyway the crux of all this was that Beverley was a puppy Mill, etc etc - this is unture and in fact is more like a 5* Hotel.

The pictures you see of the kennels on a lot of websites are exactly what is in the picture and are exactly the same as what my guys had in quarantine apart from the fact that Beverley's are air conditioned as well as heated and are clean.

My guys were laying in there own their excrement when we visited them in quarantine with there heads in the self watering water bowls about 2" off the ground in their quarantine kennels trying to keep cool and gasping for air as they were so hot, maybe someone should take up a vendetta with regards the quarantine kennels across australia they could have a real field day.

Beverleys kennels were much much nicer and as I say like a 5* hotel. The dogs are turned out in the morning into large and I mean large Paddocks which are made up of orchards, where they have plenty of toys and houses to keep them warm and dry in bad weather and cool in hot. The dogs are all healthy, happy and fun to be with. Once turned out into the day runs the staff go through and clean and disinfect with high grade disinfectant all the kennels and all the bedding is taken to the laundry adjacent to be washed and dried and fresh bedding is placed in the beds for the following evening.

The puppy nursery was fantastic and we were cleaned down and foot dipped and hand washed before entering so as not to pass any infections on. There were three nursery rooms/whelping rooms. These were fully kitted out with Whelping boxes, cd/radio player, TV, Air Conditioning and heating. There was also plenty of blankets, newspaper and medical supplies if required again to avoid cross contamiantion between rooms. Off these rooms were concrete outside play areas with shade cloths over to avoid the sun, this is where the dogs play when they are old enough and then once old enough they can then also have access large nursery paddock which is also a small orchard outside the kitchen window where they romp and play and have loads of toys to stimulate them and of course the staff who love to be able to play and socialise with the pups, these were there words "this is the best job ever".

In the whelping/nursery room Beverley also plays soft music and cognivite CD's which she has put togeather herself to help relax mum during whelping and also when the pups are growing, this helps to start the early soicalisation of her pups and something I do myself with my girls and their pups.

All the dogs are fed high grade natural foods and some manufactured at times, there favourite is the yoghurt and the pups love licking each other to wash the last of the yoghurt off their faces and mum does too. My guys thought it was christmas when they ate all the yummy food that they were given.

The padocks were clean, tidy and well maintained with all brand new fencing. So a lot of investment has gone into Beverleys new premises.

We went into the office to look at Beverley's records etc that some seem to be having a problem with and all were as she has said. I have seen first hand the DNA certificates for the individaul dogs as well as Penhipp etc so all that Beverley has said is correct.

I chose to take some of the dogs out for a walk around the front garden and found the dogs to be more than well behaved and healed beautifully on the lead which proved to me that Beverley does as she says and spends time with each one to give one to one attention especially when each and every one we took out had their own party trick to show me, what a wonderful time we had. Lots of cuddles and kissed and lots and lots of well socialised dogs which melted my heart. They are so scrumtious I wanted to take them all home.

Beverley also has her house dogs which are some of her retired girls who are so funny, we had such a lot of fun with them and watched Beverley dancing in the house with some of her dogs which the dogs loved.

The dog were well looked after and were in good health as per her vets letter on her website and a credit to her and her staff.

Beverley has about 20 dogs on the premises in total so not as many as people think she has and all are well maintained, health, happy and a pleasure to be around.

We have the most awsome time at Rutland Manor and meeting Beverley and her staff who have made our visit a pleasure at such short notice. Beverley is a gentle women who enjoys her breeding the same as I do and loves each and every one of her dogs and they know it, as they were often running up for cuddles of her.

We are very proud to have met Beverley and her staff at Rutland Manor and she is certainly a true legend in her own right. If I could offer her a medal for her work over the past 22 years and for her beautiful dogs she has produced I would but what could I call it the only words that spring to mind is that she is "A True Legend"

She has been an inspiration to so many breeders all over the world for years and she does not deserve the treatment she has received over the past few weeks and months. This has has taken a heavy toll on her health and wellbeing and I only hope the people that have caused it have got the guts to come on here and appologise. Or even better go down and vist for yourselves and appologise in person.

Beverley is a women after my own heart and someone who follows the same dreams as I do and believes in the same things as I do. She is also the first to admit if she has made a mistake and will do what she can to rectify it. She is a gentle women who loves her dogs, her staff are loyal and care deeply for Beverley and have only ever spoken highly of her. I don't believe there is a bad bone in her body she is truely loved by all that meet her includning her own canine companions.

Well done Beverley and all the staff at Rutland Manor you are an inspriation to all of us. Keep up the fantastic work.

Good luck

Adele, Adam and Team
PS. We did start to take photo's but then thought what was the point all the photo's we would have taken are on Beverleys website so go and take a good look. There is nothing bad about the Rutland Manor premises we loved our visit and we loved the setup. Good luck Beverley and we hope we can remain friends for a long time to come and I would be proud to add a link to your website from mine.

linny2
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by linny2 » 07 Jul 2009, 03:12

Hi Adele,

Glad to hear you were happy with your visit, and the dogs had a great time. Hopefully you and Adam can now take a break and put your feet up after that long drive :)

Best wishes,
Linny
Best wishes,
Linny, Buffy & Spike
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Carole g
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Carole g » 07 Jul 2009, 09:18

Glad you had a good trip smilerz. I did not expect the cages to be any other than you have described. I hardly expected all these dogs and litters to be in the home, after all. Did you just go to inspect?

I'm hoping that now that Rutland Manor has allowed you to confirm the details we have about Rutland Manor's Snuggles. Here's the reminder
"Rutlands Snuggles, for example, had her first litter at exactly 12 months of age, and had litters for at least 5 consecutive seasons (January and July one year, then January, June and November the next)."

Rutland Manor confirmed Rutland Snuggles was born 20th January 2002 and the 3 litters in 2004, 11th January 04, 17th June 04 and 17th November 04. We were promised confirmation of the two litters in 2003, 21st Jan 03 and 30th July 03 to be precise.
ALWAYS visit the premises and see mum with pup. There are no excuses!
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Clare
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Clare » 07 Jul 2009, 16:15

I am so pleased your visit was good and it has put my mind at rest!
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Clare and Pebbles

smilerz
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by smilerz » 07 Jul 2009, 23:28

Thanks guys I can only say what I have seen and cannot get involved in politics other than what I myself have seen.

I just hope whilst I now get slammed by the same people that some of you will will come to my aid and try and support me.

This is the last I have to say on the matter this has taken quite a toll on my health and right now I am have had enough.

It is one of those situations that I can't do right from wrong.

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Carole g
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Carole g » 08 Jul 2009, 01:39

I'm sorry to say that as there has been no response about the many litters this little bitch had on consecutive seasons my mind is not put at rest.
In reality one would hardly expect anyone to incriminate themselves.
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/DPI/nreninf.n ... il2009.pdf
The state of Victoria has this stipulation as regards the breeding of dogs.
"Bitches must be at least twelve months of age before being
mated and a bitch must not have more than two litters in any
eighteen month period"

This has been in force since 2002 in this format and the facts appear to be that Rutlands Snuggles had a litter on her first birthday and was mated before she was even 10 months old and constantly from then on for 5 litters that we know of. I think my disgust at this level of overbreeding is best put in the words of Mrs Admin elsewhere, for what crime did this little bitch (or others) commit apart from being born female! I am frankly stunned at the 3 litters in 10 months which Rutland Manor has agreed happened, poor little girl :( .

It is satisfying to see this girl, pet named Muggles and with a different date of birth on another site. Forgive me if my first reaction was that this little girl (like many others) is obviously a poodle and further down the page she is actually clipped as one, and a very pretty one she is too.
http://www.labradoodlehawaii.com/muggles.html

I think I would also confidently state that she would be non shedding and intelligent and good with people but the poodles I know for the most part are. Of course people are unaware of exactly what an unclipped poodle looks like.

I would also like to address the matter of bitches being bred on every season twice in the year (or even three times) , which according to Rutland Manor is nothing but natural.
I can tell you about my own experience with my small dog pack that live with me, entire boys and girls together, not kept separately in cages. My older bitches would not allow a dog anywhere near a junior bitch when she comes into season. the young are very carefully monitored by their elders. I remove the boys at this time for peace, but if the boys are even seen, there is a volley of barking to drive them away. Only the senior bitch usually has the confidence to leave the girls to approach the dog and she would be mated if she wants. The mechanics of dog breeding is such that mating of dogs that do not know each other usually requires knowledgeable human intervention to encourage mating, otherwise the bitch will run away, sit down or even bite the dog severely. Novice breeders are often surprised at how difficult it is to get a successful mating with a willing couple, many handlers have no patience and rape is forced on a bitch held up for the dog.
Wolves, foxes and many wild dogs are shown to have an annual oestrus, interestingly there are stories of tame foxes coming into season twice in the year in response to changed conditions. Mature bitches in the wolf pack make the best mothers and it has been observed that if a junior bitch succeeds in having a litter it may be confiscated by the senior bitch and reared with her own. So "natural breeding" does not mean rampant breeding by all the bitches every season, it would make no sense as there would be insufficient resources to rear the puppies. There is nothing "natural "in kenneled bitches being taken out of their cage, mated whether they like or not, and put back. I believe it is because of the serious consequences to bitches who are over bred that many countries have laws to protect them from those that see them as nothing more than puppy factories.
ALWAYS visit the premises and see mum with pup. There are no excuses!
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linny
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by linny » 08 Jul 2009, 09:53

:| :|
I too would like to see some clarification as to why this particular bitch wa bred so young and had so many litters. :?:

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sami
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by sami » 08 Jul 2009, 10:19

I am quite surprised that Rutland Manor didn't reply to Carole's queries when they were on line yesterday afternoon.
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Skippyandlulu
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Skippyandlulu » 08 Jul 2009, 10:46

While I don't agree with puppy farming or any abuse of dogs, I equally don't like to see one breeder attacking another breeder on a public forum. This has just turned into yet another witch hunt! :(

Maybe she hasn't had a chance to reply yet as her priority is to spend time with all her dogs rather than spending hours on a computer trying to dig up dirt on someone else.

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Bella
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Bella » 08 Jul 2009, 10:56

Skippyandlulu wrote:While I don't agree with puppy farming or any abuse of dogs, I equally don't like to see one breeder attacking another breeder on a public forum. This has just turned into yet another witch hunt! :(

Maybe she hasn't had a chance to reply yet as her priority is to spend time with all her dogs rather than spending hours on a computer trying to dig up dirt on someone else.

Well said. There is also the issue of RM being on a different time zone. RM's posts have always been well thought out and very detailed. She may not have the time on her hands that Carol seems to to have.
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by PennyAli » 08 Jul 2009, 11:03

Bella wrote:
Skippyandlulu wrote:While I don't agree with puppy farming or any abuse of dogs, I equally don't like to see one breeder attacking another breeder on a public forum. This has just turned into yet another witch hunt! :(

Maybe she hasn't had a chance to reply yet as her priority is to spend time with all her dogs rather than spending hours on a computer trying to dig up dirt on someone else.

Well said. There is also the issue of RM being on a different time zone. RM's posts have always been well thought out and very detailed. She may not have the time on her hands that Carol seems to to have.
Couldn't agree more

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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by linny2 » 08 Jul 2009, 12:42

linny wrote::| :|
I too would like to see some clarification as to why this particular bitch was bred so young and had so many litters. :?:
Bred before she was even 12 months old, 5 litters in less than 2 years, and unfortunately she's not the only one :(

It's just so sad. Let us all hope and pray, for the sake of the dogs, that at the very least they intend to comply with the legislation in future.
Best wishes,
Linny, Buffy & Spike
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