Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

General discussion on all labradoodle-related matters - anything not otherwise covered by specific forums on the site.
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MrsAdmin
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by MrsAdmin » 08 Jul 2009, 14:26

Thank you Adele for your long and interesting post. You are a person of integrity so it has been excellent to have your input into this debate and to get a first hand view from someone who is known to care deeply for her own dogs. I am only sorry that you have been the victim of attacks (not posted here) as you are just the sort of person this forum needs to present an impartial view of matters.

I am delighted that you found the dogs at Rutland Manor well cared for and housed in good conditions, albeit many of them in kennels, but that is to be expected with such a commercial operation.

It is certainly a vast improvement on the photographs that Beverley Manners posts of the original kennels that she purchased and that appear to have been the subject of the anger against her from some quarters. I fervently hope that the lessons from the problems of her and her daughters' previous operations have struck home and will be avoided in the future.

However, delightful as the premises appear to be, the 'nightmare' that I feel about such large-scale, international, commercial farming of dogs (which cannot be compared at all with the farming of cows as Beverley obfuscates) is that this breeder is held up as the Great Guru of Labradoodles and to whom reference is found by many would be new owners in their search for a puppy.

Her methods of breeding may be classified as acceptable in Australia or the US but I fervently hope that they will not be exported, along with the puppies and pregnant bitches, into this country.

The UKLA Code of Practice on here was created for a very good reason. To help puppy purchasers make informed decisions about what constitutes a 'good breeder', namely one who does not put profit before the care of their puppies and dogs. It also tries to prevent the exploitation of young bitches and their puppies.

There are two specific points on the Code of Practice that Rutland Manor (in the face of a lack of response to Carole G's questions and replies given so far) does not appear to comply with, namely:

1.No bitch bred from in the same 12 months as having a litter
2.No bitch to have a litter before 2 yrs or after 7 years, bitches to be limited to 4 litters

Worryingly, the newly established ALAEU does not seem to be complying with these points either. This has huge implications for the sale of imported and UK bred puppies, as the major point of purchasing a Labradoodle for many people is to avoid the problems that have resulted from 'establishment' dictats on breed standards and methods that have been shown to plague the pedigree dog arena.

What buyers do not need is a two tier system of 'good' breeders who follow the UKLA CoP, without exploitation of their female dogs, and a group of breeders who feel that the CoP does not need to apply to them because they follow the Rutland Manor system or have 'special' imported ASD dogs.

Whether a Labradoodle is an F1, F1b, F2, UK Origin, Australian Labradoodle or ASD does not matter in the slightest. It is still a dog and the manner of its creation needs to ensure that its mother had the best possible treatment, and that means following the UKLA Code of Practice.

I am not a breeder, just a person who owns two pet dogs and is firmly against the exploitation of young bitches of any breed. I am not interested in witch hunting anyone but do not want to see the excellent UKLA CoP diluted down to suit particular breeders who happen to worship at the Rutland Manor shrine.
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Bid
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Bid » 08 Jul 2009, 17:54

MrsAdmin wrote: Worryingly, the newly established ALAEU does not seem to be complying with these points either. .
Yes -that bit bothers me also, however since the site CoP was produced as a result of debate, discussion and agreement of most people using this forum at the time, perhaps we can hope that it also represents the views of the majority of informed puppy buyers, and so also have some influence over the more commercial breeders :|
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PennyAli
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by PennyAli » 08 Jul 2009, 19:11

MrsAdmin wrote: Worryingly, the newly established ALAEU does not seem to be complying with these points either.
EXCUSE ME!!!!

We do abide by the rules of this country, how dare you suggest we don't, just because we will not be dictated to by pet people on a forum, we have to take into account the laws of the whole of Europe not just people on the UKLA, but this does not mean that we as individual's break any rules!.

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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by linny » 09 Jul 2009, 01:17

PennyAli wrote:
MrsAdmin wrote: Worryingly, the newly established ALAEU does not seem to be complying with these points either.
EXCUSE ME!!!!
just because we will not be dictated to by pet people on a forum

How rude Lisa....the pet people on this forum are the same people that buy your puppies :evil:
Most are intelligent people who might not be breeding dogs but are non the less as knowledgeable about the breed as you are.

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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by PennyAli » 09 Jul 2009, 07:28

I did not suggest the all the people on this forum are un knowledgeable, The ALAEU will be governed by actual laws as it will be a legally binding official organisation, we will be held far more accountable than Mark could possibly do on this forum. There will be fines for more minor breaches or we would be chucked out for serious breaches, we are however an organisation covering the whole of Europe, the laws in some countries may differ from our own so this needs to be taken into consideration when writing the generic Code of Ethics but that does not mean we as individuals will breed early or more frequently or break any rules.

The Kennel Club Rules state

The bitch cannot be under a year old at the date of mating,
The bitch cannot have more than six litters
The bitch has under eight years at the date of whelping.

Does this mean that all KC Registered Poodle breeders breed their dogs at one year old for the full 6 litters, I don't think so!!!

It is just the same that implying that the members of the ALAEU don't follow rules

We are however waiting for information from the Royal Veterinary Colledge, and the comparable organisations in Denmark and Holland as to what is and is not good practise and will adjust our Code of Ethics to reflect this.

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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Lizzie B » 09 Jul 2009, 11:07

I think the truth behind the legend ,may be what they call a franchise.

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mhayhurst
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by mhayhurst » 09 Jul 2009, 19:09

PennyAli wrote: It is just the same that implying that the members of the ALAEU don't follow rules
You seem to have misread MrsAdmin's text:
MrsAdmin wrote: Worryingly, the newly established ALAEU does not seem to be complying with these points either. .
Nobody said anything about breaking laws or rules. What was stated was that the ALAEU position, and indeed the "real" laws of the land (in this case UK) falls short of the UKLA Code of Practice. Indeed we all hope that any such "rules" (the law or ALAEU membership agreements, are minimum requirements - I guess there are a number of people here who would have hoped that any such organisation would be bold in exceeding the bare minimum laws (that avoid "cruelty") and aim for Best Practice so that breeders are not in any doubt.

And to answer the other comment - as long as any UK ASD or similar breeders are in compliance with the UKLA CoP (over and above their own ALAEU requirements) they are more than welcome to list on this site.

Thanks,
Mark

PS I'd like to thank /all/ contributors to this thread (well most anyway) as I think it has been enlightening and useful and for the most part considered and thankfully, civil!

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MrsAdmin
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by MrsAdmin » 12 Jul 2009, 07:02

My apologies to anyone who seems to think I should have posted or replied to pms immediately on this topic. I have been busy working and had no time.

Actually judious use of time to read and re-read what is actually posted and using the draft post system to calm down and reflect on what you are writing would have avoided the construing into a post what was not actually written.

Lisa, I am very sorry if you are upset by my post. That was not my intention as your reputation and care of your dogs is well established on UKLA.

I made no mention at all, as Mark points out, of anyone breaking any laws of the land. As I understand it, the law in the UK, sadly, is that dogs must not be bred under 1 year old, which many of us think should be altered to 2 years but is unlikely to get any time for re-legislation in Parliament.

The point I was making was about the UKLA Code of Practice for breeders.

I am delighted you have now put out that the ALAEU website is Under Construction. This was not clear beforehand and anyone coming across it would have thought it was a completed organisation. As the Code of Ethics is now removed there can also be no confusion about the points on it being construed as set in stone, as you inform me, they are indeed under debate and discussion between members.

It has laudable aims and I thoroughly support any organisation that is trying to ensure dogs are looked after properly and not subject to exploitation.

I take your point that the membership of ALAEU is across many countries (and God knows, some of our European 'cousins' do not have the best of reputations for animal kindness :evil: ) I hope you can persuade your other members that the points I was particularly concerned over, namely:

1.No bitch bred from in the same 12 months as having a litter
2.No bitch to have a litter before 2 yrs or after 7 years, bitches to be limited to 4 litters

are a more acceptable expression of the puppy buyers viewpoint (as indicated by the consensus of opinion on this site that meant they came about) than the mere legal minimum. Your comment about 'petpeople on forums' I am sure was just made in the heat of the moment and not intended to offend.
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Carole g
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Carole g » 13 Jul 2009, 10:25

Rutland Manor tell us that she has an international trademark on the name Australian Service Dog.
I was quite amazed that someone would trademark a dog when I first heard of it. This is fascinating stuff!, while all too obviously I am not a legal expert I will share my bit of research with the forum as below.
You can register trademarks in any country and they are national rights to that name. There is no international trademark just national and there has been no application to make a registration via the Madrid protocol to register in the individual countries covered by Madrid .
Trademarks are assigned a class of product or sevice so trademarking a dog as an ASD, Australian Service Dog (if it is posssible to do so) does not prevent another person trademarking a different class of product or service as Audstralian Service Dog, so you could have Australian Service Dog beer for example.
There is an Australian Trademark under class 44 (Breeding of Animals)

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/atmo ... rec_all=44
LOGIN AS GUEST

Trade Mark : 1113229
Word: ASD AUSTRALIAN SERVICE DOG
Image: CHILD,SILH. & DOG SHAKE HANDS IN MAP,AUSTRALIA
Lodgement Date: 11-MAY-2006
Registered From: 11-MAY-2006
Date of Acceptance: 29-JAN-2007
Acceptance Advertised: 15-FEB-2007
Registration Advertised: 12-JUL-2007
Entered on Register: 26-JUN-2007
Renewal Due: 11-MAY-2016
Class/es: 44
Status: Registered/Protected
Kind: n/a
Type of Mark: Composite

Owner/s: Angela Mellodie Cunningham
PO Box 1399
HEALESVILLE VIC 3777
AUSTRALIA

Beverley Frances Rutland-Manners
PO Box 1399
HEALESVILLE VIC 3777
AUSTRALIA



Address for Service: Angela Mellodie Cunningham
PO Box 1399
HEALESVILLE VIC 3777
AUSTRALIA


Goods & Services

Class: 44 Breeding of animals

History
Opposition

Indexing Details - Word Constituents
=ASD ASD
AUSTRALIAN DOG
LTR SERVICE


Indexing Details - Image Constituents
ANIMAL BORDER
BOY CHILD
DOG DOG,ST-BERNARD
MAP,AUSTRALIA PERSON
ROPE SILHOUETTE
SITTING STITCH+




This has no effect outside of Australia, there is no UK or EU Community trademark. There is no prevention of the use of the name outside of Australia and outside the commercial breeding of animals (class 44) in AustraLia. In other words, anyone in Australia could call their labradoodle an ASD provided it was not acting as a badge of origin for business purposes, no advertisinng. or exchange of money is possible under the trademarked name without risk of infringing the mark if detected..
Then of course, if there was a case in an Australian court there is an argument that it should not be registered as place names are unregisterable (Australian) as is descriptive language.(Dog and possibly Service) under the Paris Convention and therefore national law.

Fascinating that the image attached to this trademark is of a St Bernard dog shaking a child's hand in silhouette on an outline of Australia.
ALWAYS visit the premises and see mum with pup. There are no excuses!
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Rutland Manor
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Rutland Manor » 13 Jul 2009, 15:04

Carole g wrote:Rutland Manor tell us that she has an international trademark on the name Australian Service Dog.
I was quite amazed that someone would trademark a dog when I first heard of it. This is fascinating stuff!, while all too obviously I am not a legal expert I will share my bit of research with the forum as below.
You can register trademarks in any country and they are national rights to that name. There is no international trademark just national and there has been no application to make a registration via the Madrid protocol to register in the individual countries covered by Madrid .
Trademarks are assigned a class of product or sevice so trademarking a dog as an ASD, Australian Service Dog (if it is posssible to do so) does not prevent another person trademarking a different class of product or service as Audstralian Service Dog, so you could have Australian Service Dog beer for example.
There is an Australian Trademark under class 44 (Breeding of Animals)

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/atmo ... rec_all=44
LOGIN AS GUEST

Trade Mark : 1113229
Word: ASD AUSTRALIAN SERVICE DOG
Image: CHILD,SILH. & DOG SHAKE HANDS IN MAP,AUSTRALIA
Lodgement Date: 11-MAY-2006
Registered From: 11-MAY-2006
Date of Acceptance: 29-JAN-2007
Acceptance Advertised: 15-FEB-2007
Registration Advertised: 12-JUL-2007
Entered on Register: 26-JUN-2007
Renewal Due: 11-MAY-2016
Class/es: 44
Status: Registered/Protected
Kind: n/a
Type of Mark: Composite

Owner/s: Angela Mellodie Cunningham
PO Box 1399
HEALESVILLE VIC 3777
AUSTRALIA

Beverley Frances Rutland-Manners
PO Box 1399
HEALESVILLE VIC 3777
AUSTRALIA



Address for Service: Angela Mellodie Cunningham
PO Box 1399
HEALESVILLE VIC 3777
AUSTRALIA


Goods & Services

Class: 44 Breeding of animals

History
Opposition

Indexing Details - Word Constituents
=ASD ASD
AUSTRALIAN DOG
LTR SERVICE


Indexing Details - Image Constituents
ANIMAL BORDER
BOY CHILD
DOG DOG,ST-BERNARD
MAP,AUSTRALIA PERSON
ROPE SILHOUETTE
SITTING STITCH+




This has no effect outside of Australia, there is no UK or EU Community trademark. There is no prevention of the use of the name outside of Australia and outside the commercial breeding of animals (class 44) in AustraLia. In other words, anyone in Australia could call their labradoodle an ASD provided it was not acting as a badge of origin for business purposes, no advertisinng. or exchange of money is possible under the trademarked name without risk of infringing the mark if detected..
Then of course, if there was a case in an Australian court there is an argument that it should not be registered as place names are unregisterable (Australian) as is descriptive language.(Dog and possibly Service) under the Paris Convention and therefore national law.

Fascinating that the image attached to this trademark is of a St Bernard dog shaking a child's hand in silhouette on an outline of Australia.
More inaccurate information Carole G....as usual on this forum.

1. If the ASD trademark (NOT the 'dog') is not internationally registered, then the trademark lawyers I paid almost thirty four thousand dollars for international trademarking would be very interested to hear your statement! Perhaps you'd like to take it up with them.

2. SAINT BERNARD??? Too funny!!! That picture is one I hand drew myself. It is of a shaggy dog sitting raising its paw to a child.

3. I have never ever lived in Healesville nor had a postal address in Healesville. To my knowledge neither has Angela.

Just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read, no matter WHERE you read it, doesn't it!
Beverley Manners
Rutland Manor Australia
Co Founder of the Australian Labradoodle

Avril
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by Avril » 13 Jul 2009, 16:05

YAWN YAWN YAWN

Carole g

Once more You Have the Facts Wrong :evil:

Have your followers lost interest in you so much, you have to pursue a breeder in Australia :roll:

GUNNER
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by GUNNER » 13 Jul 2009, 16:26

So is http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ not a government body/website?

It is on there for all to see :?
http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/atmo ... rec_all=44

ps: It does say St Bernard dog :?

heike
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by heike » 14 Jul 2009, 00:49

Soooo carole g.

heike
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by heike » 14 Jul 2009, 02:13

To Linny, you need a job, other than attacking Beverley. To Bev, thanks for breeding our beloved ASD labradoodles. To others focused on the past, let it go. And to Mark, thanks for your voice of reason.
Regards,
Heike

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mhayhurst
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Re: Rutland Manor. Is this the truth behind the legend?

Post by mhayhurst » 14 Jul 2009, 07:12

I think this thread has run its course. I am grateful to RM for having the good grace and honesty to come and post here and answer straight questions with reasonably straight answers. I do find some ambiguity in a number of the issues raised and the responses but people must make up their own minds. I think there has been clarification rather than hyperbole and even if the answers do not meet with the entire approval of all, they are nonetheless fairly straight answers (explicit or implicit).

I don't especially see that the trademark stuff (which itself seems to have some contradictory statements being made) is all that relevant to /the welfare of dogs/ which was the root issue here. Some of these points are, it seems to me, covered more than adequately in other forums abroad where the matter may appear more relevant than in the UK.

Mark

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