Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

General discussion on all labradoodle-related matters - anything not otherwise covered by specific forums on the site.
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Carole g
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by Carole g » 09 Oct 2009, 11:07

"The allergy friendly claim isn't unique to RM or doodles, however I couldn't agree more that importing a dog and hoping that it's coat won't cause a reaction is asking for trouble.

We've taken dogs to meet people and test allergies, and always feel nervous when there are allergies in the family. Doodle coats change as they grow, so any sort of guarantee is meaningless, even if tests are done."


Thank you Adam, clearly you take care. Clearly though the onus is not on the buyer but on the seller of a dog as "allergy friendly" to an allergic family they have never met... that is mis-selling whoever does it.

I would very much like to see your response to linny's questions
ALWAYS visit the premises and see mum with pup. There are no excuses!
DONT BUY FROM PUPPY HARMERS
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Adam Lindley
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by Adam Lindley » 09 Oct 2009, 12:14

Carole g wrote:Clearly though the onus is not on the buyer but on the seller of a dog as "allergy friendly" to an allergic family they have never met...
I disagree, the onus is on the buyer to chose the dog that is right for them. Buying (and selling) dogs over the internet can go wrong. Families where there are allergies would be much better advised to "shop locally", meet the breeder, the dogs, and hopefully make the right choice.

I have given my views on the issues raised in Linnys post a number of times before, as you very well know :o

I still do not agree with the well orchestrated witch hunt and sensationalised reporting (don't remember her, and it was only 25+ years ago?), and there is a human side to all of this that is being ignored.

linny
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by linny » 09 Oct 2009, 13:03

It is pointless to hold any further correspondence with you Adam. Your colours are nailed very firmly to the mast of RM.
Your thoughts are with Beverly and not with the dogs.
Beverly is an elderly lady and she might well not be coping but her dogs deserve better care than they are apparently getting .
You can continue to pull forelock to Bev ...the rest of us will try and see what can be done to make sure Bitches are not bred underage, back to back, and that all breeding history is true and correct .not a pack of lies.

sylvie
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by sylvie » 09 Oct 2009, 16:19

Linny says,
Back to the basis of this thread.
What I would like to know Adam are your views on the RM policies of breeding back to back, breeding underage, debarking of the RM dogs,breeding from a bitch who has had a triple mastectomy, whelping dates that simply don't tally, etc etc.

It is like beating your head against a brick wall getting a sensible answer from Adam, who seems to be just treating this whole sorry issue as a game of words. At the end of the day it does'nt matter what Adam thinks, as he seems unable to give a straight answer.
These things that are happening, have happened, to these lovely dogs are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
It says it all to anyone else, so it is just a waste of time and energy battling it out with someone who just wants to mess around.
Roll on getting it sorted out properly out there with the right people.

lilybut
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by lilybut » 09 Oct 2009, 20:28

I agree Sylvie - I have been following RM threads for a good few months now, and I am not sure that Adam has ever really addressed all these questions personally. He has brought up what may or may not be the legal requirements in Victoria occasionally, but they have also been refuted.

It seems that he only succeeds in diverting the discussion away from RM and into a spurious sparring match, with "witch hunt" accusations and "bigger fish to fry" arguments his main ammunition. Probably, he is best ignored.

But, what seems to be missing in all this is what UK breeders, with studs and bitches imported from Rutland Manor, should be doing in the face of the controversy.

Personally, and this is only my personal feeling, i would not be buying a puppy from a UK breeder of ASD Labradoodles unless they were directly addressing the issues being brought up about RM. The breeders who do not address them may have good reasons not to (maybe wishing not to enter the fray?) but even so, it does tarnish the whole ASD Labradoodle veracity, and I would not want to enter into a relationship with a breeder who does not deal with it transparently.

If nothing else I would want to be sure i was paying good (and an awful lot of) money for a Labradoodle, not a 99% poodle. And this is aside from the welfare issues.

Just my thoughts.
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aussiedoodles
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by aussiedoodles » 10 Oct 2009, 00:24

Surely the breeders who have purchased ASD Labradoodles, and who have been deeply affected by this situation, can move forward from this.
These revelations regarding RM are devastating but if we remain focused on a selective breeding program it is possible to breed forward.
I personally know of experienced breeders who have acknowledged the issues and recognised that if they apply their breeding knowledge and experience then all is not lost.
We need to remain focused and diligent – breed forward for the betterment of this wonderful breed we love so much.

Adam Lindley
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by Adam Lindley » 10 Oct 2009, 02:54

The standard of the RM offspring generally hasn't been questioned, it is the welfare of the parents that is of concern.

Pedigrees are essential for creating a breed for KC recognition, and for minimising potential genetic issues, however an accurate pedigree doesn't guarantee a healthy dog. I would expect that most breeders would have carried out their own health testing or have certified test results for their dogs.

UK breeders who put themselves under the scrutiny of this forum deserve the full support of everyone on the forum.

aussiedoodles
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by aussiedoodles » 10 Oct 2009, 03:06

What part of "False Pedigree" do you not understand Adam???

Even the Pound Puppy "Wanderer" MIIGHT have tested perfectly that does NOT make purchasing a dog from a pound with unknown parentage and fabricating a pedigree OK.

In YOUR world is it OK to breed multiple litters from a female from 8-10 months of age??? Sometimes up to 9 litters back to back.


I am sorry but the standard HAS been questioned Adam - many breeders have discovered they have purchased a VERY EXPENSIVE Breeding dog to now discover it is basically a Poodle, or even worse fbred rom a Fabricated pedigree. This might sit well with you but for others it is devastating.

I am saying that together we can breed forward - please don't use that statement to condone what has occured at RM.

heike
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by heike » 10 Oct 2009, 04:13

So true, and Wanda may not be the only one!!! :shock: There is another dog in Bev's previous breeding program that came to her under similiar circumstances, no know history and no pedigree, save for the one she made up. Does lying about your breeding stock and selling them off for thousands of dollars make any sense to anyone here??? I can bet she sold breeding dogs to others from these two and even a much higher cost. The point is these dogs are not BAD dogs, just they are not what she sold them as, pure Australian Labradoodles. This is simply fraud at best. As for a "witch" hunt, nooo just getting to the bottom of a long standing deceptive breeder that puts the welfare of her dogs last. The poor choices she made over the years, including giving an incredible amount of money to her fellow puppy farmer should not have been at the expense of the dogs. :x

Adam Lindley
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by Adam Lindley » 10 Oct 2009, 04:38

I am aware of possible implications of false pedigrees. It is wrong and if intentional, dishonest. Cost is a non-issue and as I have said on numerous occasions previously, if I owned a RM dog I would be seeking answers.
aussiedoodles wrote:many breeders have discovered they have purchased a VERY EXPENSIVE Breeding dog to now discover it is basically a Poodle


There are worse dogs to own.. I don't recall it being stated anywhere that an ASD is 50/50 Lab/Poodle? By implication, the Poodle Gene pool might just have been added to? :shock: No doubt Carole will deservedly put me straight on that one. :)

I don't agree with breeding on a first season, I do not agree with breeding continuously. I do agree with retiring breeding dogs early.

I don't agree with Lilybuts thinking of boycotting UK breeders with ASD's for pretty much the reasons aussiedoodles has stated, which has nothing to do with RM and everything to do with supporting top quality UK breeders.

Heike - splitting hairs, but by definition, wouldn't any labradoodle coming from Australia be an Australian Labradoodle?

lilybut
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by lilybut » 10 Oct 2009, 07:37

I didn't suggest boycotting UK ASD breeders. I said that i would not consider buying a puppy from any UK ASD breeders who are not at the least addressing the fact that there are issues surrounding the dogs that have come from RM. As pointed out above, and as seen on threads on this forum, some UK breeders ARE addressing the issues, and good for them.

Some of the websites that i have looked at recently still fanfare their breeding stock as being the best of the best on account of them coming from "the founder breeder, Beverley Manners at RM". In the light of all the controversy, i personally would not want to buy from these breeders UNLESS they were being transparent and acknowledging that there are apparently some problems with this Founder Breeder. For example - the pedigree must be verified. And they need to absolutely distance themselves from the apparent RM welfare problems, which seem to be pretty well documented. Silence on these issues at best may indicate ignorance of what is going on (not a good sign), and at worst a kind of acceptance. I am sure no UK breeder would wish to be seen to be condoning such issues as de-barking, back to back breeding etc.

It seems that you enjoy the drama of this, Adam. To call what i have suggested a call to boycott is clearly taking the ball and running with it for the sake of a bit of wrangle. I clearly said it was just my opinion. One person's theoretical concern does not amount to a call to arms. Tut tut.
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heike
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by heike » 10 Oct 2009, 09:36

That is if is an Australian Labradoodle, not a pound puppy bred to pretend to be such!!! Why don't you get it?? :shock: She bred a pound puppy Adam, claimed to be an "pure" Australian Labradoodles and sold her puppies as such for thousands of dollars.
Doesn't this give you a pause?? She lied Adam, and this isn't the first time. I am not sure why you would throw in your hat to defend this.

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PennyAli
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by PennyAli » 10 Oct 2009, 09:55

Just because UK breeders refuse to bad mouth people all over their website, does not make them a bad breeder :shock:

Some of the UK breeders who are dedicated to the Australian Labradoodles are doing their best to move forward with the breed properly, we have helped set up the ALAEU which is an official organisation which is a sister organisation to both the ALA and the ALAA, fortunately we have access to their databases, so we can do our best to trace our own pedigree's back and see what breeds are in their and make sure that we make the right decisions going forward, we are all fully health testing which is being checked and recorded by the ALAEU registrar, we are all DNA profiling our breeding stock with compatible DNA Labs so that we can prove parentage of all our dogs and offspring. We can all check if the dogs mentioned are in our lines, and we have to remember that their are hundreds of RM lines out their so just because some are questionable in terms of pedigree and the amount of poodle, does not mean that they all are. One thing that remains firm in my mind is that despite all of this there is something very unique about the Australian Labradoodles, they ARE wonderful dogs, people that have met mine, have seen the difference for themselves and unless you have had the opportunity to have both Labradoodle Origins and Australian Labradoodles you wouldn't appreciate the difference.

I love all of my Australian Labradoodles, none of them came directly from RM but have it in their pedigree and whilst I feel deeply for their ancestors, I don't love my dogs any less for it

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freedom
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by freedom » 10 Oct 2009, 10:05

Thank you Lisa, I have sat here for a while wanting to reply but not sure how to word my response :?
There are actually only two breeders in the UK who have imported dogs from RM directly, that is myself with two dogs Nirvana and Molli, whom I feel no less love for. And Lisa Carson but I seriously doubt that she will wish to face the onslaught that would follow if she posted but I bet she is addressing the issue all the same.
What are we expected to do???
The only thing we can do is move forward and that is what we are doing

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PennyAli
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Re: Rutland Manor - when you think it can't get any worse...

Post by PennyAli » 10 Oct 2009, 10:18

Your welcome Deb, sorry I didn't reply sooner, I was in to much pain after my little opp :(

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