A tap on the nose

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Holly & Nick
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A tap on the nose

Post by Holly & Nick » 17 Oct 2009, 16:29

Is it ok to tap a dog on the nose when they have done something wrong or does this interfere with their senses?

Barneyboy
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by Barneyboy » 17 Oct 2009, 16:53

Why would you want to tap a dog on the nose? What do you think it might acheive?

At best, I'd suggest it would make the dog sensitive about having human hands moving around it's face, and at worst, you could cause the dog to snap at you.

What is your dog doing that you'd want to tap it on the nose for? I'm sure we can come up with a far more effective way of stopping it doing what ever displeases you.
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jans
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by jans » 17 Oct 2009, 18:00

NO it hurts !!! A dogs' nose is very sensitive , please don't do it , try using a cross voice or a sharp hand clap for the naughtiest behaviour, distraction also works wonders to stop unwanted behaviour....... but no nose tapping.Of course i am not an expert or anything I am sure a training expert will be along here in a moment to help you with some good ideas :)

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Bid
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by Bid » 17 Oct 2009, 19:10

I find a certain tone of voice is all that is needed for them to know they have done something I am not happy about - there is a specific "Ah" that will stop Daisy in her tracks :roll: , and "Leave" covers most offences :wink:
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graciedoodle
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by graciedoodle » 17 Oct 2009, 19:49

I have just taken one of my 4 month old pups back because she has been tapped on the nose! :evil: She is a totaly fxxxxd up little girl. Lets hope i can fix her. :( :cry:
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chelsea
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by chelsea » 17 Oct 2009, 20:20

If you catch them in the act of doing something naughty it is much better and kinder to try distraction first, either distracting them with another activity or using a stern growly voice or an Ah, Ah as Bid has said, if they don't respond to that 'time out' away from the family is a more suitable punishment.
If the crime has already been committed a good telling off/tap/smack or whatever will not have any effect because dogs associate pleasure/punishment with the action they are performing at that exact moment. For example if you return home, find your sofa chewed to pieces, give your dog a good telling off, he or she will form an association with you coming home and them getting punished. It won't even cross their mind that the telling off is connected to the sofa BUT chewing the sofa gave them pleasure so next time they are worrying about you coming home and punishing them they will chew it again to relieve the stress.
Sorry have rambled a bit there but I'm not sure what they are doing that needs punishment :?: so I'm not sure what to suggest but I hope that helps anyway.
Both your dogs are rehomes aren't they :?: It can sometimes take a little longer for a rehomed dog to understand the rules because there are probably differences between your rules and those in their former homes.
It would be great to hear how they are getting on :mrgreen: .

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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by linny » 17 Oct 2009, 20:46

I agree totally with all of the above, NEVER NEVER smack especially on the nose,
Would you want to be smacked on the nose or anywhere else for that matter :!:

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Bid
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by Bid » 17 Oct 2009, 21:17

graciedoodle wrote:I have just taken one of my 4 month old pups back because she has been tapped on the nose! :evil: She is a totaly fxxxxd up little girl. Lets hope i can fix her. :( :cry:

:( :( I'm sure you'll be able to get her back on track with a little tlc.
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Doodlenut
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by Doodlenut » 17 Oct 2009, 21:47

If the crime has already been committed a good telling off/tap/smack or whatever will not have any effect because dogs associate pleasure/punishment with the action they are performing at that exact moment. For example if you return home, find your sofa chewed to pieces, give your dog a good telling off, he or she will form an association with you coming home and them getting punished. It won't even cross their mind that the telling off is connected to the sofa BUT chewing the sofa gave them pleasure so next time they are worrying about you coming home and punishing them they will chew it again to relieve the stress.
I used to agree but my boy seems to be an exception. On times I have come home to find he has raided the kitchen bin. He know he is in the wrong as he creeps from his bed to greet me. Other times when the bin is in tact he comes bouncing up. This confuses me. Stil trying to train him to put the rubish back in the bin :? :mrgreen:


With reference to nose tapping, I use the dog whisperer technique of finger tip taps on the back of the neck at the time he need distraction from what he shouldn't be doing with an ah ah. The ah ah on it's doesn't work with my stuborn hound
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mistydog
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by mistydog » 17 Oct 2009, 22:25

Agree lots of dogs know when they have done wrong just like Doodlenut has said. Having had dogs for a number of years I've come across the same situation on numberous occassions. Also agree physical punishment wont do any good when the deed has been done.
I've also known many owners, mainly men, who have tapped their dogs' noses when they have done wrong or don't do as they have been told. This has been an instant reaction and although not advocating it, I have known some of these dogs for many years and no harm has come from it, except a well behaved, well loved and loving dog.
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MrsAdmin
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by MrsAdmin » 17 Oct 2009, 22:38

Jack knows when Becky has done something wrong, AGAIN :roll:
:lol:

He's only got to hear the first bellow of 'BECKY :twisted: ' and he promptly rolls onto his back and licks frantically at my hand or shoots straight into the kitchen and lies down on his bed, looking guilty as hell :lol:

Even with Madame and all her antics, they have rarely been smacked or tapped (except by Hubbie when particularly destructive and he got the sharp edge of my tongue for it :evil: ). Beccles is a re-home too so I appreciate greatly how difficult it is to get through to them - bucket loads of patience is the only answer. :roll:

Jack has the brain to know 'Oh heck, she's not pleased, we're in trouble :? ) yet Becky either meanders over all dim-like, wondering 'what's for tea?' or gets the devil in her and starts legging it round the dining table, clutching the latest casualty in her jaws of steel :evil: :roll:

I found that time out for Becky in the kitchen behind a stairgate, counting to 20 (10 is not enough :? ) and a sharp word if I can catch her in the act, are the best 'punishments' but it does take a VERY long time to get a Doodle to recognise right from wrong - in fact I think they are so special (needs) they never do :roll:

Good luck with your two. Put everything on high and give them loads of cuddles and love - it helps make up for the destructive days :P
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Holly & Nick
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by Holly & Nick » 17 Oct 2009, 23:18

Well we will not be doing that then! Many people seen to give so much advice I'm just having trouble sieving through the helpful true advice and rubbish i.e "tap them on the nose when they have done something wrong".

I think because we have two recues of a similar age it is going to take a little longer to train them and we need to do a lot more one to one. Things we have had problems with are pulling, stealing food, barking aggressively at strangers, chewing, and jumping up. We will be taking both of them to training as soon as we get their boosters up to date and hopefully this will give us a little more confidence with our methods.

I was considering a tap on the nose for honey who barks aggressively at strangers and other dogs. I have tried using the tone of my voice, stern and calm, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. I believe she is doing it because of her insecurity from her previous life and I think the best way to cope is by using a calm voice as this will hopefully reassure her in the long term. However many people still preach the sterner approach. But has anyone got any ideas for this particular problem??

Sorry for the waffling and thank you for all the advice so far.

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MrsAdmin
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by MrsAdmin » 17 Oct 2009, 23:45

Holly & Nick wrote: I was considering a tap on the nose for honey who barks aggressively at strangers and other dogs. I have tried using the tone of my voice, stern and calm, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. I believe she is doing it because of her insecurity from her previous life and I think the best way to cope is by using a calm voice as this will hopefully reassure her in the long term. However many people still preach the sterner approach. But has anyone got any ideas for this particular problem?? .
You are quite right, it does sound as though it stems from insecurity.

On a practical basis, can you find someone with an older dog who is pretty bomb-proof? If so arrange to meet them in the park (securely enclosed in case she runs) on neutral ground and walk Honey there alone on a lead and head collar (better control over her actions). Walk round the park together slowly, with each dog on the far side of you at first to give them some space, then allow them to walk side by side when Honey is happier and settled.

Try to find a quiet time when there aren't many people or dogs about so there are less distractions/Honey perceived threats.

If Honey kicks off then just calmly walk her in an outward circle away from the other dog and sweep round in a return so they are near again. You might need to do this several times as long as the other dog is OK about it.

When she is calm, then reward her with a piece of cheese or liver cake and say 'Good girl' in a pleased voice but don't make a big deal out of it. If you are calm and matter-of-fact she won't pick up on any of your stress and escalate.

For dealing with people you need to prime lots of friends to do a similar thing, walk together slowly, ignoring Honey, back off when she barks but then return and continue until she is quiet. NEVER allow anyone to try to pat her over the head. Dogs can freak out at this as they see a hand above their head as a threat, particularly if they have been walloped before. Ask people to hold a treat (dry dog biscuit less messy for others) in a fist and to hold it at their side low down. Let Honey sniff it and get interested. Then they can bring their hand a bit further out, still in a closed fist and low, and then turn it and let her take it, saying 'TAKE Honey, Good Girl'.

After she has got the hang of that (a proffered fist might mean food) then you can get her to back off from the hand by saying 'LEAVE' and not letting her have the treat until she backs away and sits down calmly.

Eventually you can practice this at home with both of them once Honey is trained up because then she won't bark and will teach Milo what to do. This will also boost her confidence and status.

Good luck. Mine are the same age too and it's bloomin' hard work but you do get there (mostly :roll: ) in the end.

Extra tip Holly - try using a very low and firm voice. I find it makes mine think I am Hubbie and they respond better than to a desperate squeak :lol:
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Barneyboy
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by Barneyboy » 18 Oct 2009, 09:30

Dogs do NOT know when they have done wrong - they are reading your body language and reacting to that with appeasing behaviour......
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chelsea
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Re: A tap on the nose

Post by chelsea » 18 Oct 2009, 10:02

Holly & Nick wrote:Well we will not be doing that then! Many people seen to give so much advice I'm just having trouble sieving through the helpful true advice and rubbish i.e "tap them on the nose when they have done something wrong".

I think because we have two recues of a similar age it is going to take a little longer to train them and we need to do a lot more one to one. Things we have had problems with are pulling, stealing food, barking aggressively at strangers, chewing, and jumping up. We will be taking both of them to training as soon as we get their boosters up to date and hopefully this will give us a little more confidence with our methods.


It sounds like you have your hands full :lol: but all you need is time and patience to turn things around.

Do you walk your dogs together :?: I've found with my guys that they tend to 'feed' off each other so if one pulls the others will follow suit. It is very difficult to corect more than one dog at a time so I would suggest walking them seperately until they have learned how to do it. Maybe try a headcollar so you have a bit more control. Reward them for walking on a loose lead and if they pull just stop and don't speak. The rewards for loose walking have to keep coming constantly at the beginning so they become focused on you. Similarly the correction (stopping) has to happen the instant the lead tightens everytime, as soon as they stop encourage them to your side, slacken the lead, reward and carry on.

If you find the answer to the food stealing please do let me know :lol:. It is a correctable behaviour but requires a lot of training (leave it) because the reward of their stolen booty is often much greater than the punishment they will receive for doing it. Plus doodles are at an unfair advantage because of their size and reach. So far I have failed miserably :mrgreen: so the way I have tackled it is to never leave any food unattended for a second. If I forget I give myself a hard tap on the nose as a reminder :wink: No seriously, you need to either reward them greatly for leaving, catch them at it to correct it or set them up and create a negative association with stealing. This could be loud noise for example.

Chewing is a natural behaviour for a dog, it serves two purposes, in young dogs upto 2 years it helps bed their teeth firmly into the jaw, and it is also a stress reliever/comforter because it releases happy endorphins in the brain a bit like dummy sucking/ nail biting for humans.
You do need to provide them with acceptable items to chew like bones or commercially produced chews/toys.
Personally I crate my dogs when I'm not able to supervise them until I think they know what they can and can't chew. I then progress to leaving them with the crate door open for short periods. If at any time I return and find something has been disturbed/nibbled I know they aren't ready so I wait a few weeks and start again. This is one behaviour where prevention is definitely better (and less expensive) than cure. Chewing is a rewarding behaviour and can quickly develop into a habit, it can also be dangerous for the dogs if for example they decide to chew electrical wiring.

Jumping up is another behaviour that generally gets a reaction/reward. It's hard to ignore big bouncy dog. Are you registered on Doodletimes :?: There are some excellent stickies on the training section to help you tackle this one.
Holly & Nick wrote:I was considering a tap on the nose for honey who barks aggressively at strangers and other dogs. I have tried using the tone of my voice, stern and calm, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. I believe she is doing it because of her insecurity from her previous life and I think the best way to cope is by using a calm voice as this will hopefully reassure her in the long term. However many people still preach the sterner approach. But has anyone got any ideas for this particular problem??


Most dogs who bark at strangers/other dogs do so out of fear. Usually because they have not had adequate socialisation as young puppies. Barking is their way of telling the threat to go away. If you punish them for doing it you only reinforce to them that there is something to be scared of ie everytime a stranger approaches I get told off or smacked so I'm going to bark even more so they won't come near.
The way I have tackled it with my rescues is to find their comfort zone, eg how far away they need to be before the barking starts, and reward them for being calm. I then walk away from the threat, show them a reward and approach, jollying them along and keeping them focused on the reward until we are a little closer than before. Repeat, repeat, repeat. If at any time they react I turn them and walk away without speaking and start again from square one. When we can get really close I walk them past the threat, keeping them focused and jollying them along. Stop and reward when we have passed then turn and repeat. When this is reliable I proceed to stopping near the threat, reward them for calmness and 'bonus' the threat also rewards them by dropping treats on the floor. Eventually they start to view strangers as positive rather than frightening. This has to be done in different places with lots of different people, all shapes and sizes, wearing hats, uniforms, glasses, on bikes, jogging etc etc just like you would do with a young puppy. The difference is young pups are generally naturally curious and people generally like them, if they bark at people it doesn't usually bother them, they even find it funny/cute and will actively encourage the puppy to approach. Older dogs are more fearful and have lost the cute factor so people act shocked and scared, even aggressive sometimes which frightens the dog even more :( .
Holly & Nick wrote:Sorry for the waffling and thank you for all the advice so far.
If you are still awake I'm sorry for the long post :mrgreen: I hope it helps. Have you considered 1 to 1 training, it might be a good first step before you try a class. Your vet may have details of qualified APDT in your area.

Good luck :D

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