Raw food questions

Use this section to discuss pros and cons of variuous feeding regimes and other matters relating to nutrition
Liz!!
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Liz!! » 30 Jan 2014, 10:13

Yep, I think that was the point, it's partially digested enough to break down the cell walls, I guess unless what the animal has just eaten.

Lola's poo is always firm and unsmelly on Orijen and Nature's menu (cooked variety), but looking forward to what it's like on some raw.
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Lola is a UK Assistance Dog, trained to alert me for low blood sugar by Medical Detection Dogs (http://www.medicaldetectiondogs.org.uk)

Helen & Rigby
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Helen & Rigby » 30 Jan 2014, 11:47

I expect this is obvious but I'm going to ask :D if I give rig raw for breakfast, we then wait an hour before we go for walkies. He then has cooked chicken/sausage for training treats. Is that ok?

Signed,
Worry wort :D
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Bid
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Bid » 30 Jan 2014, 12:02

I think the main reason for waiting after eating is because a big lump of food in the gut, especially dry food swollen with stomach juices, can swing about when they gallop, and if it twists the gut they would then bloat. Leaving a good time before exercise will mean the food has started being digested and is passing around the various bits of the guts rather than in one big lump. In that case some small treats being fed over time wouldn't be the same risk as a large meal.
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Helen & Rigby
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Helen & Rigby » 30 Jan 2014, 12:14

Sorry for not being clear, often the way with me! I was worrying about the raw food followed by cooked?? :D
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Roodlepippin
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Roodlepippin » 30 Jan 2014, 16:49

I expect this is obvious but I'm going to ask :D if I give rig raw for breakfast, we then wait an hour before we go for walkies. He then has cooked chicken/sausage for training treats. Is that ok?
Yes Worry Wart (!) I think that's absolutely fine. The kibble / raw dilemma is supposed to be the way that kibble takes much longer to digest than raw, which might - possibly - mean that raw meat stays around in the dog's stomach much longer than it otherwise would, leading - possibly - to health problems.

I don't think there's anything that says you shouldn't feed raw and cooked food together. But, as you've probably gathered, there are quite a range of opinions out there!!
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wobble.gob
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by wobble.gob » 30 Jan 2014, 19:43

I've just weighed ozzy - he's now 21kg!!

I also popped into my local suppliers (Pet Pantry in Gosport) and they have lots of raw food to choose from including Natural Instinct, Natures Menu and their own brand.

I thought I should gradually change Ozzy's food, he's currently eating Naturesdiet, but they said because of his age - I can just swap foods straight away?? Is this something any of you would recommend?

As he is also a puppy, should I feed him 4 - 6% of his body weight??
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beeeerock

Re: Raw food questions

Post by beeeerock » 30 Jan 2014, 20:13

Bid wrote:The plant matter fed to dogs isn't digested using enzymnes, but fermented using bacteria lower down in the gut, which is why dogs fed a diet high in carbs tend to have gas and sloppier smellier poo than those fed a species appropriate diet. As already mentiojned by others, it's one of the delights of raw feeding - non-smelly firm poo to pick up! :D :D
Dogs don't have the enzyme necessary to digest carbs in their saliva, but it is produced by the pancreas. A high-carb diet could therefore be considered a strain on their system. But they absolutely do have the ability to digest it.

Their digestive tract is short, therefore anything that doesn't digest quickly enough can come out sloppy. Bodhi doesn't have this issue though, nor has any dog I've ever had... none have been raw fed.

While there may be *some* bacteria that *attempt* to digest cellulose lower down, they aren't significant. The bacterial process is what ruminants (cows) and septic tanks use to break down tougher organic material to be digested. Some vitamins are extracted by bacterial processes in the large intestine of carnivores, but that's about it. Acidic levels higher up in the dog's system tend to kill most of it off, as has been discussed relative to health/contamination concerns. Gas issues are generally created at the lower end of the system, when lower intestinal bacteria get to work on incompletely digested materials. Their activity doesn't provide appreciable nutrient value to the animal and is really just an annoying result of incomplete digestion. Same as in humans.

Something that hasn't been mentioned, but is perhaps worthy of consideration, is the fact that carnivores tend to eat every few days, not several times a day. They gorge themselves when they make a kill... if they don't, someone else will finish it off. The exception is the odd mouse a fox might catch more regularly, but for wolves (which we want to compare to dogs), it's feast and famine. I've never known anyone to feed their dog in this way! Food comprising plant material is slower to digest and should leave the animal feeling full for longer - in theory. I've never been a dog to confirm this... The comments about Lola(?) needing food regularly to avoid vomiting liquid brings this to mind... it may be that the raw food is going through so quickly, she's hungrier than would otherwise be expected.

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AustinsMumma
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by AustinsMumma » 30 Jan 2014, 21:30

Oh god, forgive me
I am a simple lady

Feed your dog... whatever amount you feel necessary
Feed raw... a bit of veg too... all good

Jus do what you what you feel
My Auz eats TWICE a day and he loves it
Austin Doodle came to town riding on a pony......
Austin's profession?... Eating Mummy's STEAK
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Helen & Rigby
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Helen & Rigby » 31 Jan 2014, 08:27

Thanks Roodlepippin! It's a blooming mine field! :D
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frosty
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by frosty » 31 Jan 2014, 20:45

Dogs don't have the enzyme necessary to digest carbs in their saliva, but it is produced by the pancreas. A high-carb diet could therefore be considered a strain on their system. But they absolutely do have the ability to digest it.
Absolutely correct.....However, the fact that its only the pancreas that have the enzymes means it hits the pancreas HARD and it has to work overtime to break it all down. Humans at least have the capability to do a lot of the work breaking it down before it hits the pancreas due to amalyse breaking it down in the mouth first . So this Massive strain on the pancreas then affects blood sugar regulation, and hence surges in insulin to compensate for the lack of enzyme work !!!! Still with me :wink:

We all know what happens when the pancreas gets overloaded with insulin surges......diabetes, hypoglycemia and maybe not so well known, allergic responses to food, as pancreatic enzyme sufficiency may result in absorption into the blood stream of improperly digested or undigested food. (thats what causes food allergies).

So in a nutshell, your better to limit or avoid these carbs when feeding your dogs 8)
"The reason dogs have so many friends is because they wag their tails instead of their tongues."

Liz!!
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Liz!! » 31 Jan 2014, 20:50

Lola isn't fed raw yet - she brings up bile on her kibble and wet nature's diet cooked meat and veg. Lots of dogs do - i know several among my friends even.
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Lola is a UK Assistance Dog, trained to alert me for low blood sugar by Medical Detection Dogs (http://www.medicaldetectiondogs.org.uk)

beeeerock

Re: Raw food questions

Post by beeeerock » 31 Jan 2014, 21:48

frosty wrote:
Dogs don't have the enzyme necessary to digest carbs in their saliva, but it is produced by the pancreas. A high-carb diet could therefore be considered a strain on their system. But they absolutely do have the ability to digest it.
Absolutely correct.....However, the fact that its only the pancreas that have the enzymes means it hits the pancreas HARD and it has to work overtime to break it all down. Humans at least have the capability to do a lot of the work breaking it down before it hits the pancreas due to amalyse breaking it down in the mouth first . So this Massive strain on the pancreas then affects blood sugar regulation, and hence surges in insulin to compensate for the lack of enzyme work !!!! Still with me :wink:
Yup, that's what I meant by my comment about a high carb diet potentially being a strain on their system... with the consequences you describe in your next paragraph! :D
frosty wrote:We all know what happens when the pancreas gets overloaded with insulin surges......diabetes, hypoglycemia and maybe not so well known, allergic responses to food, as pancreatic enzyme sufficiency may result in absorption into the blood stream of improperly digested or undigested food. (thats what causes food allergies).
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that's the only cause of food allergies, but I'd buy that it's at least a potential cause.
frosty wrote:So in a nutshell, your better to limit or avoid these carbs when feeding your dogs 8)
Reading and *understanding* the ingredients list is important. Carbs aren't created equally, so even simply looking at the potential percentage isn't enough... glycemic index should also be a consideration (IMHO at least). But ensuring that percentage is adequately low is a good first step.

Samdunn
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by Samdunn » 31 Jan 2014, 22:02

Mmm, I'm now thoroughly confused. I think I will stick to the kibble with bits of cooked meat , fresh veg or fruit now and again for variety and interest. When I have the time to study the subject in more detail I may become a Raw convert but I'm pretty sure Sam will come to no harm going on as we do. Been an interesting debate!

beeeerock

Re: Raw food questions

Post by beeeerock » 31 Jan 2014, 22:36

Samdunn wrote:Mmm, I'm now thoroughly confused. I think I will stick to the kibble with bits of cooked meat , fresh veg or fruit now and again for variety and interest. When I have the time to study the subject in more detail I may become a Raw convert but I'm pretty sure Sam will come to no harm going on as we do. Been an interesting debate!
I think that's a safe decision, so long as you are aware of what fruit and vegetables aren't good for dogs (i.e., grapes for example). It's a pretty quick and easy web search to find that list though! :D

In my view, if you put in the time and effort to research -*properly*- the raw diet concept and you're willing to provide the proper ingredients n the correct proportions, raw *should* be a better option for a typical dog than a typical kibble. But if you don't do raw correctly, it has the potential to be worse than the kibble! Kibble is the safe solution, made safer the more fussy you are about the brand/content of the kibble.

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frosty
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Re: Raw food questions

Post by frosty » 01 Feb 2014, 11:43

Beerock, I didnt say that overloading the pancreas was the "only" reason for food allergies :shock: ...no Idea how you came to that conclusion. Its just "another" way that food allergies occur.

Gut health, with lots of good bacteria is essential as the gut is responsible for how the immune system works...hence a lot of autoimmune issues are down to poor gut health.

All kibbles and dried foods are different, if there was such a "perfect, nutritionally balanced diet for al dogs they would all use the same ingredients in the same proportions"....but they dont. The only common denominator is that All are heated to ridiculous temperatures so kill all natural enzymes and a lot of the nutrients, and therefore they then have to add synthetic vitamins and minerals and god knows how many preservatives to keep a long shelf life. That aint natural no matter what they tell you :( . REAL food goes off quickly unless you freeze it first. I dont care whether its a "top" brand , £1m quid brand or not.....Its all Processed food, and not natural , and whatever species on this planet you are, raw uncooked , unadulterated food is a necessity to "Thrive"! Thrive and "survive" are 2x different meanings in my head.

I totally agree with you that you need to do it right, and get a reasonable balance of different meats, offal and bones for certain. But to say a Dried kibble is better than a raw food diet is absolutely nonsense, and from reading some of your posts its like your trying to justify this to yourself :?

ill get off my bandwagon, but people, if your all confused and want to stick with a decent dried food thats fine. But please add a variety of "natural" unprocessed, unheated , uncooked foods whenever you can if tolerated.....its what any animal on the planet needs, and with dogs it should be meats, eggs, offal with all the "natural" enzymes, nutrients that are highly digestible and will help your dog thrive!
"The reason dogs have so many friends is because they wag their tails instead of their tongues."

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