Feeding raw? Read this paper!

An area to discuss any health concerns you may have in your dog or questions about health matters in general
Jay128
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Jay128 » 12 Feb 2014, 13:03

Can I say thank you for the reassurance some of you have given regarding raw feeding. If I am honest this thread does worry me. I have only been feeding fully raw for about a week and a half and hubby has real concern over the bugs debate. Poppy has her own freezer, I did this because I like to pop her kong in to freeze and didn't want to have to keep wrapping it up to keep it away from our food, and because we didn't have enough space to store several weeks of her food in our freezer.
She has a container in the fridge to defrost her food, cleaned and sealed. A set of her own scales to put her bowl on to weigh out how much she should have and a piece of dog bed that she eats bones and her stuffed kong on. I wash my hands and the kitchen surface as I would when preparing our food. Dog and cat food is prepared on a surface which is not used for our food. I don't however clean her beard after she has been fed, should I?

Still worried but trying not to panic!
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Liz!!
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Liz!! » 12 Feb 2014, 15:12

Sorry, Jay, but I do think this debate is worth having, for all the different views and reassurance... and knowledge, really.

OCD, yes it is a worrying tendency, but as you have seen I do try very hard to keep on top of it!
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Lola is a UK Assistance Dog, trained to alert me for low blood sugar by Medical Detection Dogs (http://www.medicaldetectiondogs.org.uk)

Jay128
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Jay128 » 12 Feb 2014, 15:21

Hi Liz, I have no problem with the thread at all in fact I find it quite helpful and reassuring to see that people have been feeding raw for a long time without any adverse effects. It is something that hubby has commented on and it's good to hear all points of view. I have a child in the house, all be it a fourteen year old, so do have to make sure I am doing all I can to minimize the risk. :D
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Niandsa
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Niandsa » 12 Feb 2014, 17:24

I have only started feeding raw this morning and intend to take the same basic precautions I do when preparing our food. Our house is not the cleanest :oops: most of the time and whilst my 11 and 8 year olds have not been brought up in squalor :lol: I have always believed that exposing children to bugs can make them healthier in the long run (I know certain bugs can be more serious). My two have not had a days sickness in over 2 years despite me forgetting to disinfect the kitchen regularly and occasionally eating out of date foods. :lol:

I want to enjoy my dogs and if I was excessively worried about the risks of feeding raw I would stick to good quality kibble. :)
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frosty
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by frosty » 12 Feb 2014, 17:43

I totally understand peoples concerns, especially after just embarking on a raw journey, and hence reading everything you can about it 8) .
Scaremongering usually comes from people that are "against" it, or out of there comfort zone and hence feel the need to disregard it to make themselves feel better imo.

I have plenty of friends that feed raw, have had babies , toddlers and young children with no ill effect. Like you rightly said Liz being a clean freak is more detrimental to your health as you need bugs to build up your immune system.

My house is certainly not squalid, its as clean as it can be with wet weather, mud and 2x long haired dogs.....But my point is ive been feeding this way for that long that I dont even think about extra hygiene precautions....the dogs bowls get washed frequently (i cant say daily), their vet bed weekly (if its pouring down they eat bones on that), and the odd occasion my toddler niece has visited (they live abroad) she gets licked to death by the beasts, and she has been fine...and they dont have a dog so she isnt used to it either.

So just relax and worry more about the weather and flooding at the moment, there is more chance of that contaminating water , than a bit of raw meaty beard tinge :D

Its great that we have a load of new raw feeders though, im sure you'll never look back and your doodles will love you for it and thrive :mrgreen:
"The reason dogs have so many friends is because they wag their tails instead of their tongues."

Samdunn
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Samdunn » 12 Feb 2014, 17:44

I agree wholeheartedly with Niandsa, ( I'm no expert, or even a raw feeder -yet!) but believe a little dirt does you good- within reason and following general good kitchen hygiene habits. But then I've got 4 young kids and the alternative is living my life with a bottle of bleach in my hand which I'd rather avoid!. Be sensible, that has much as I can do.

beeeerock

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by beeeerock » 12 Feb 2014, 18:32

This comes down to your acceptable level of risk and how you want to manage it.

While I agree that we need some challenges to our immune system to remain healthy (well, healthy if we run into something nasty - if we all lived in a sterile bubble there would be no need), there are some bugs that we're better to avoid altogether.

How often do we actually suffer from a mild case of something, that we put down to a strong curry? Was it the spices or was there something a little off in the ingredients? Or did we pick it up from somewhere else with timing being the coincidence?

Until we get a case of something that really IS nasty, we don't worry about these things. And probably shouldn't worry (too much). The question is how healthy you and the people around you are if something bad does get loose, and how high your risk tolerance (for yourself and for them) actually is. Do you clean your cutting board between chopping the raw chicken and cutting up the salad ingredients? Probably... that's a high risk, or so we've been taught. Where does the raw diet fit on the risk scale? Would you put your salad ingredients anywhere near the items the dog's raw meal touched? The answer will be different for everyone and factors like wiping the face on the furniture, long beards etc. probably factor into the risk calculation. Dry food has some risk too, we assume, but it doesn't tend to drip - even if there is contamination, our risk of exposure is that much less.

Your risk tolerance will vary... if you have immuno-compromised people in the house, old or very young, you may decide the risk is too high. But it will be a case by case determination that everyone must make for themselves. Simply stating, "it's not a problem, I've never been sick", probably isn't the best way to answer the question, because it doesn't mean you won't be and it doesn't mean you have't been - only that you apparently haven't been deathly ill or haven't connected the dots directly when you've "picked up a bit of a bug".

While Salmonella has been discussed here, I think E Coli contamination is probably a bigger threat, simply because it has the potential to be more prevalent in raw food. Having seen where raw comes from, I'm actually quite surprised there aren't more issues, because procedures aren't always followed right to the letter at the abattoirs.

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frosty
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by frosty » 12 Feb 2014, 19:24

Beeeerock where exactly does "raw come from" in your head ???

Im my experience much of my dogs food comes from the same butcher that I buy my own meat from (much locally sourced from pastured animals) , and is hence 100% traceable ?? He gives me bones, minces up heart, cuts up Liver, kidneys and guts and skins wild rabbits for me ....the same stuff he sells to none animal owners.

Raw suppliers like Manifold in the UK actually sell and supply the majority of their meat from their farm as they have their own abattoir and hence its the same meat for human consumption as it is for pt consumption, just different cuts in some of them.

For someone that is obviously never going to feed a raw diet to his dog, and never has done, Im not sure why you feel the need to contribute to this thread :? And im quite sure all the pre prepared raw pet food manufacturers in Canada are not much different than here :?

Oh and BTW, I never suffer from digestive illnesses no matter how mild you may say they are, but if I did it would be more likely from a dodgy curry whereby the local indian has served me old gone off meat that is masked by a strong spicy sauce!!.....but then I eat a lot of bacteria myself, as im a huge believer in gut health.......And OMG I do even eat raw egg yolks daily :shock: ..... and im still alive god help me and im not a carnivorous canine :mrgreen:
"The reason dogs have so many friends is because they wag their tails instead of their tongues."

Liz!!
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Liz!! » 12 Feb 2014, 19:31

I have an superexceedingly good sense of smell - I can smell people and tell even where they have been even, my OH gets away with nothing. I often smell bleach on human raw meat (I suspect this is what beerock is referring to) and I suspect that it has been hung under other meat being disembowelled and has had to be cleaned off. This does happen. I have been in slaughter houses as i used to work with a vet.

Raw meat in our house is cut with meat shears on a plate, not a board, the shears are thoroughly cleaned along with the plate. We do not use bleach, we use tea tree oil.

Neither of us have had any stomach upset, even slightly, and could certainly not put any such thing down to slight food poisoning, as we have never had that either!

So if it happens here, we can be pretty sure it is down to the raw feeding, i'll let you know!
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Lola is a UK Assistance Dog, trained to alert me for low blood sugar by Medical Detection Dogs (http://www.medicaldetectiondogs.org.uk)

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Donna
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Donna » 12 Feb 2014, 20:37

I can honestly say that since feeding raw to the dogs (6 years now), we've not had any nasty bugs. I do wash their bowls after every meal but I'm definitely not obsessive about it.
Personally I'd be far more concerned with where they'd stuck their noses up other dog's butts and I dread to think of some of the things they pick up or sniff when they're off lead.
Surely if you're willing to have any animal, you have to be prepared to put yourself at some risk.
As with everything in life, take reasonable precautions and be sensible about it :)
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beeeerock

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by beeeerock » 12 Feb 2014, 21:47

frosty wrote:Beeeerock where exactly does "raw come from" in your head ???
Dead animals, but they don't come from inside my head.
frosty wrote:Im my experience much of my dogs food comes from the same butcher that I buy my own meat from (much locally sourced from pastured animals) , and is hence 100% traceable ?? He gives me bones, minces up heart, cuts up Liver, kidneys and guts and skins wild rabbits for me ....the same stuff he sells to none animal owners.
Traceable? You used question marks, so I'm gathering you're not entirely sure yourself! Does it have serial numbers or bar codes stamped on it? Were genetic samples taken at the farm, kept with full medical records so you can trace a sample back? How do you know the rabbit was wild? Don't kid yourself - your butcher is working on trust. And you're trusting his trust. Both might be well-founded, or maybe not. Your experience may be positive but that doesn't meant it will be the same as everyone else's, from different sellers or suppliers.
frosty wrote:Raw suppliers like Manifold in the UK actually sell and supply the majority of their meat from their farm as they have their own abattoir and hence its the same meat for human consumption as it is for pt consumption, just different cuts in some of them.
Again, this is a trust thing. Do you really think the better animal isn't going to go into the human food chain, to sell at a better price? Do you really think the animal that's failing or sick doesn't get a quick bump to the front of the line, before an inspector shows up?
frosty wrote:For someone that is obviously never going to feed a raw diet to his dog, and never has done, Im not sure why you feel the need to contribute to this thread :? And im quite sure all the pre prepared raw pet food manufacturers in Canada are not much different than here :?
If you read other posts of mine on this subject, I think you'll find that I don't actually say "don't feed raw". Instead, I try to balance it based on the pro's and con's of each. I do think that people are often quick to jump on the bandwagon, without properly understanding what they're doing. And that goes for selecting dry or raw. Or canned for that matter. I've said previously that I believe, ON AVERAGE, a dog will do just as well or better on a quality dry food, for the simple reason that it's been designed to be somewhat complete... which can't be guaranteed when it comes to a raw feeder who doesn't do enough homework or isn't able to stick to the program properly. If you're one of those that has the knowledge to do it right, good on ya, I have no issue with that.

Whether our dry food is different to yours I really don't know. I know we can buy complete garbage, and also real quality stuff and I would assume it would be the same for you - demand tends to dictate supply. Raw is available here, but doesn't have an evangelical following. Which I find interesting in itself... BC is known to be one of the healthiest provinces in the First World, exercise and an outdoor lifestyle is embraced and the supply of domestic livestock and wild game is large by any standard. We aren't timid about eating meat, domestic or wild. Why is raw not a bigger deal? Is our dry food better than average? Are we selfish and refuse to extend our healthy lifestyle with out pets? I honestly don't know.
frosty wrote:Oh and BTW, I never suffer from digestive illnesses no matter how mild you may say they are, but if I did it would be more likely from a dodgy curry whereby the local indian has served me old gone off meat that is masked by a strong spicy sauce!!.....but then I eat a lot of bacteria myself, as im a huge believer in gut health.......And OMG I do even eat raw egg yolks daily :shock: ..... and im still alive god help me and im not a carnivorous canine :mrgreen:
The point I was making was that you might not know what the source of contamination was. It could have been old meat, that may or may not have shown signs of being off, it could have been something else, whether contamination on your fork or bacteria in the raita. When someone suffers from 'food poisoning', are they always sure of the source?? It usually starts the "but you ate the chicken too... but not the salad dressing - hmm" game.

Being exposed builds a resistance which is a good thing - Mexicans drink the water without consequence, but pity the tourist that tries it - but that doesn't mean a good dose of E Coli, Listeria or Salmonella (or even a parasite like Cryptosporidium) won't take down an otherwise healthy individual. There is a difference between healthy exposure and simply putting oneself in harm's way.

All I'm saying is people need to make their own decision based on their risk tolerance, level of cleanliness, susceptibility to illness and source of meat... etc. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. Just because you've had good luck doesn't mean the next person won't get sick on the first day.

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Bid
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Bid » 12 Feb 2014, 22:04

You OCD peeps would hate my kitchen! It has a tiled work surface - apparently a prime location for germs to hang out. So far we have been fine - I take basic precautions - buy good quality food for the dogs (MVM as mentioned by Frosty mostly, and from a local butcher), the bowls go in the dishwasher twice a day, and all surfaces wiped down with anti-bacterial stuff. Every now and then the kitchen gets a once-over with a pet-friendly disinfectant too, which deals with most of the nasties - this is the stuff if you are interested - no phenols, bleaches or pine oils. http://mistralie.co.uk/collections/pet- ... nt-premium
www.dogtrekker.co.uk
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frosty
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by frosty » 12 Feb 2014, 22:22

Well beeerock , it does seem that you like to argue the toss about everything.... Scientifically obviously :lol: !

There are risks with everything in life, and if you take precaution with everything and believe everything you read you will lead a very dull boring life IMO !

We are very different doodle owners that's for sure . You are an owner that makes scientific risk assessments in life, and hence based on those findings you choose to feed manufactured, un natural processed food and shock your dog into behaving , as you believe that's the right thing to do after all your research :? Me, I choose to feed my dogs a diet which provides as much nutrition in its natural form with no doubt some odd mistake along the way :oops: , and certainly a lot of bacteria :D ! I prefer to give liver treats as a way of training my dogs, as I believe they love me better training them that way. No idea about the science behind that personally, but I like to think I have happy healthy well balanced doodles that are not spring chickens anymore.

So I'm afraid we will never agree , but hey oh life would be boring if we all thought the same :wink:
"The reason dogs have so many friends is because they wag their tails instead of their tongues."

Liz!!
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by Liz!! » 12 Feb 2014, 23:29

Funnily enough the thing I don't use is disinfectant in the house, except bleach in very small quantities down the loo- I think it is the wrong thing to do. Washing is as effective, unbelievably. It kills 99% of all known germs.

As for tiles - wood is best, apparently , as it has enzymes that kill germs. Tiles and plastic etc get covered in germs again as soon as they are washed.

So i have an unsealed wooden kitchen side, and loo seats! Washed with tea trea oil in water and washing up liquid.
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Lola is a UK Assistance Dog, trained to alert me for low blood sugar by Medical Detection Dogs (http://www.medicaldetectiondogs.org.uk)

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frosty
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Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Post by frosty » 13 Feb 2014, 07:41

I actually use White vinegar for most things, including wiping down the work surfaces, The Dreaded Dog Freezer surface :wink: loo seats and most other cleaning requirements.

Like you i do use bleach down the loo, and to clean the mop, but other than that I try to be as chemical free as I can.

But then Im one that also doesn't like to use chemical wormers or flea treatments either, and never booster my dogs, opting for titre tests......you could probably call me Mrs Anal holistic in my methods :mrgreen:

right off to pent out some frustration at early morning spin!!! Any questions re raw, ask Bid coz this site isnt good for the blood pressure, which i why I dont frequent it that often! :wink:
"The reason dogs have so many friends is because they wag their tails instead of their tongues."

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