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Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 09 Feb 2014, 16:04
by Liz!!
I've begun feeding raw for Lola - a the minute just some with her Nature's Menu and Orijen. Interestingly she is leaving some of her food - the Nature's Menu wet cooked meat, and eating the raw and the Orijen in preference.

I was concerned however with her propensity for taking the raw out of the bowl and eating it on the floor - worried in case she might be contaminating the house with salmonella.

I was Googling to find out if there is a bowl for eating raw from - I was thinking something wider and more shallow might encourage her to eat it in situ.

However, I found this scientific paper looking into salmonella residues on pet food bowls - and the effects of different types of cleaning.

As you can see, salmonella is surprisingly robust, and the best cleaning method was scrubbing until there were NO residues of meat left at all, then bleaching. I don't like bleach - but even washing in the dishwasher (after scrubbing to remove all residues) did not remove all the salmonella. And i wouldn't really want to contaminate our crockery with it!

I find this quite worrying. The small quantities involved would probably not be an issue with healthy people but would be with those with compromised immune systems, or the elderly or young - babies, toddlers.

I wash Lola's bowl very thoroughly, scrubbing it and then using tea tree oil and rinsing several times.

However - her hair around her moth has to be full of wet raw chicken - which she tries to wipe off after.

What do you raw feeders do about this?

(Edit to supply link!!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1555674/

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 09 Feb 2014, 17:16
by Samdunn
Hi
I don't have much useful info on this but I did my PhD thesis on the stress response systems in Salmonella- basically looking at the genetics involved. In a nutshell it's a hardy bacteria that can mount responses to all sorts that's thrown at it. Know nothing about the dog situation but nasty for humans so I'd be careful with suspected Salmonella sources near areas used for food prep etc.

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 09 Feb 2014, 19:01
by Ben
Our bowls just go in the dishwasher and we have never been over previous about sterilising etc.... we have been ok with no bugs or sickness.

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 09 Feb 2014, 19:07
by Bid
The food I feed my dogs is human grade food, so I don't suppose there is any greater risk handling it than preparing food for ourselves (well except for me as I don't eat meat :lol: ). There is nothing I can do about their beards, so I make sure I wash my hands thoroughly before preparing food. Besides, they go about sniffing all sorts of things when out, and their beards wil pick up loads of nasties from that regardless of what they eat. It is also worth bearing in mind that so far the instances of salmonella being reported in dog food seems to be mainly dried food - there have been a few recalls due to salmonella in kibble, but none from raw meat that I am aware of, so it is all dog owners that need to be careful, raw feeders and kibble feeders. It's nothing new though - washing hands after playing with dogs, and before preparing food is standard isn't it.

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 11 Feb 2014, 14:37
by Pippin
I was going to say similar to Bid. If you Google salmonella and dog food you will get pages of big brand recalls. As far as I can see feeding kibble is just as risky.

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 11 Feb 2014, 17:32
by beeeerock
Pippin wrote:I was going to say similar to Bid. If you Google salmonella and dog food you will get pages of big brand recalls. As far as I can see feeding kibble is just as risky.
Or it gets tested on a regular basis because there are standards in effect and any detected contamination makes the news, whereas raw food once out of the door is a mystery.

After preparing raw meat for human consumption, the cutting board etc. gets a very thorough cleaning. Then the meat gets cooked! I'm not sure the same effort goes into cleaning the typical pet bowl. And then, the water bowl, because it just took a hit from the grubby mouth after the food was gone. And maybe the mat where Fido rubbed his face in delight.

As well, the meat we eat is subject to higher inspection standards and the cuts we serve are more, shall we say, 'pedestrian' than what animals eat. If you're going to talk about contamination from raw meat, I'd say E Coli should also be a strong consideration.

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 11 Feb 2014, 17:41
by Liz!!
Hmm, quite.

I'm not worried about her bowl actually, as it is extremely well cleaned, as is the floor after she has dropped her chicken and eaten it off of it... any tiny traces will hopefully be in amounts that can be dealt with by our immune systems.

It's the raw juice (and subsequent washings of Lola's face and hair with a wet wipe show pink with blood) that I'm worried about - getting bacteria out of hair is difficult - hair holds bacteria, it is porous. That's why workers in the food industry must tie their hair back.

However, this article is very interesting if you can read it all!

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 025-1.html

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 11 Feb 2014, 21:46
by Bid
That is interesting - it hadn't occured to me that Poppy could get infected with such diseases from the people she visits in hospital!

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 11:53
by frosty
Gosh Bid, I think you should do a risk assessment on whether its worth Poppy visiting hospitals then, she could pick up anything :shock: :roll:

OK people, Ive been raw feeding my dogs for 7 years +. They drag bones and carcasses in the house, eat on the floor, in the garden, eat out of there bowls etc etc. Im not exactly a hygiene freak, and sometimes even snog my dogs faces and they Both have long beards! :oops: But I also forget when they've gorged on horse poo, or anything else rancid theyve eaten when out and I can hand on heart Honestly say Ive NEVER contracted salmonella, Campylobacter or any other blooomin type of gastrointestinal disease in all this time :roll: (and neither has anyone else in this house) . The ONLY time ive suffered with stomach bugs (x2) was both times in foreign countries years ago. (pre raw fed dogs).

so please dont get your knickers in a twist re raw feeding, and over read the scaremongering posts by certain "experts" that dont even raw feed :roll: . I know plenty of kibble fed dogs that have had salmonella and Campylobacter and never eaten raw meat in their life, and the same for the odd vegetarian human! .

For peace of mind, just take better hygiene precautions than me :wink: , and wash the bowls in hot soapy water after youve fed them, or even wipe their faces with Apple cider Vinegar to kill any pathogens that "may" be lurking!!!!

PS: My settee must be a walking salmonella trap as they love to wipe their bears along that after eating :? :shock: :lol:

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 12:24
by Jasper
I'm glad this has come up as we feed raw, mainly from MVM, DAF and Bulmers.
The bowls go in the dishwasher etc. and we wipe down the prep area with antibacterial spray everytime; but I am more concerned about our settee :shock: as Jasper insists on doing a full length settee rub with his beard after every meal. :roll: :lol:
I have no idea why he does this, and hadn't come across any other dog with this behaviour, we've had his teeth checked etc. :roll:
Please don't say I have to wash our leather settee down twice a day - cos it aint 'appening!
Jo and Jasper
xx

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 12:25
by Liz!!
Lola does that!

I'm thinking of my grandchildren in time, and how to make sure they will be safe.

At the minute I have a pair of disposable gloves to clean out both bowls (the cat is now completely raw). My hands were getting sore!

Lola has kibble in the morning and Nature's Menu, and raw in the evening. And after the raw I wash her face with a wet wipe - the cat washes herself!

Funnily enough - Lola eats the kibble in preference to the Nature's Menu. And the raw, when I was changing over... it is Orijen, which isn't cooked so much as slowly air dried, so maybe it is good enough!

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 12:32
by Pauline
I feed raw & my dogs pick up all sorts of revolting things, rancid carcasses & I've never got anything apart from in hospital.
I'm writing this in hospital following a knee replacement & although I have lots of praise for the staff being a retired nurse I have to say I wasn't offered hand washing following using bedpans, its no wonder there are infections!!!!

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 12:39
by Liz!!
Really? Incredible.

I think with some people (me!) whose families have been over-clean, it takes a lot to get used to this idea.

I used to wash my daughter's toys if they fell on the floor - a biologist friend told me to stop or she'd never get an immune system and I did.

8 years ago I could feel myself getting worse OCD wise so got the cat to try and get myself used to dirt, and didn't feel comfortable in my own home for about 4 months... even with washing her paws when she came in! Gradually I got better.

When I got Lola i didn't worry about the dirt at all, although she does get a shower after a walk, even though just her paws when she'd not that muddy.

I think not worrying about e coli and salmonella goes one step too far for my constitution though! So I will continue to worry...

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 12:53
by Helen & Rigby
I sympathise Liz, I have OCD tendencies along with aspergers, and I struggled with getting dirty, particularly my hands. But since having Rig I have got much better. :D

Re: Feeding raw? Read this paper!

Posted: 12 Feb 2014, 13:01
by jans
I feed raw. I have a fairly clean house (ish) !! We've never contracted a tummy bug or otherwise from our dogs. To be frank I think I'd be more worried about the OCD!! :lol: