Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

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Jac
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Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Jac » 28 Apr 2014, 08:45

Hi

I thought I would start a post to warn labradoodle owners of the possible risks of using Advocate (and other spot on treatments such as Advantix).

I've just had a conversation with the owner of one of my puppies I sold about 3 ½ years ago. She contacted me a couple of years ago to say her dog kept having blackouts, and at the time, the vet thought it could be epilepsy and sent her away with some medication. We had a chat and I confirmed that none of my dogs (or any pups) had ever suffered from epilepsy. We’ve kept in touch over the years and she said that her dog was generally fit and well but would occasionally be off colour, anxious/restless then collapse for no reason. Her daughter, who is a trainee vet (I think), took a video and her colleagues confirmed that the dog did not show the classic signs of having an epileptic fit (no twitching or leg paddling) so she was NOT epileptic. As they wanted to get to the bottom of the problem they decided to undertake some thorough testing – MRI scans of her brain, liver, kidneys etc and lots of blood tests (costing 4K ouch! Good job they had insurance!). The scans came back showing no problems and the first blood tests were fine. However, while she was there for further tests they noticed she had an extremely high temperature and she blacked out! They took some more blood tests and they came back showing a problem with her liver; indicating some sort of poisoning! Anyway, when they checked the dates of the previous blackouts it turned out they had happened after she had been given the spot on treatment – Advocate!

I have since spoken to other dog owners and the reactions to Advocate and Advantix etc are not as uncommon as vets (and the drug companies) let us believe. I've been told of several labradoodles showing signs of distress (panting, restlessness, itching etc) after being given spot on treatments. One distraught owner lost their labradoodle at 7 months after it developed a high temperature; the vets tested for Parvo etc which came back negative and they said it was some kind of unexplained poisoning.

I know the drugs are not suitable for certain breeds of dogs such as collies but it looks like labradoodles may be affected too (?).

I am in the process of looking into using alternative remedies e.g apple cider vinegar, citronella and diatomaceous earth (I already use diatomaceous earth as a natural worm treatment which is very effective) rather than risking the health of my dogs.

I am not deliberately trying to scare people, but I thought I would try and make people aware of the possible risks of spot on treatments such as Advocate and worming tablets etc - as at the end of the day, they are poisons.
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Curious George
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Curious George » 28 Apr 2014, 12:05

Hi Jacqui,

Thank you for the advice, I also received your email. As you know George was not too happy after having his spot on Advocate a month ago, he kept crying as if in pain (he is usually a very quiet dog) and was agitated for the rest of the day. He had another dose last tuesday, but given his adverse reaction before we had the vet administer it this time incase anything went wrong. He seemed fine this time, but I am still not happy using it.

I also met another labradoodle owner on a walk and she said her dog collapsed and had a high temperature and was in and out of consciousness after been given advocate, he was very bad and barely breathing throughout the night but seemed to recover the next day, she said she will never use it again and is telling other people to avoid it. Apparently Advocate can have an accumulative effect and make any symptoms worse each month.

With all the problems I hear and knowing George also is not too keen on it I think I'm going to start using more natural remedies as you mention. Do you know of any good alternatives for preventing lung worm? George is keen on eating grass and picking up anything he finds on the floor, including snails. If my small bit of research I have done so far is right then diatomaceous earth seems very good and prevents most worms but not lung worm?
Rhea & George

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Roodlepippin
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Roodlepippin » 28 Apr 2014, 12:34

Woody has had a reaction to Advocate too, but only to the extent of having red, irritated lumps / swellings on his neck where I'd applied it. The vet's suggestion was that it might be either the active ingredient OR the liquid carrier that gets it under the skin.

She suggested we carry on for a bit longer to see whether the lumps came back. She did say that there are alternatives if he was definitely reacting to it. I have some more phials at home but I haven't used any since.

My question really is whether any of these flea / worm treatments need to be used as often as the vets / manufacturer's recommend. Once a month seems excessive, especially when fleas are a very seasonal problem and ticks are - at least on dogs like Woody without a dense curly coat - quite easily seen and removed.

The only anxiety I have about not using it is the lungworm issue. Like most dogs, Woody paddles, drinks muddy water, chews toys that have been left out in the garden etc and probably picks up all sorts of stuff. I don't know what alternatives there are?
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Pollydoodle
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Pollydoodle » 28 Apr 2014, 13:16

Thanks for taking time to post about this. If you have the time perhaps you can also write to the drug companies involved .
For what it is worth, at least they wouldn't be able to turn round and say "we did not know/ it was not reported"

I skimmed this doc and NO hint of any really bad side affects Page 64 lists "adverse" which I would read as no real problems with this product but then we hear of accounts such as those posted above.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/doc ... 060917.pdf

On the European Medicines Agency - nothing untoward
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp? ... 058008d7a8

For what it is worth: European Medicines Agency is a decentralised agency of the European Union, located in London. The Agency is responsible for the scientific evaluation of medicines developed by pharmaceutical companies for use in the European Union.

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Jac
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Jac » 28 Apr 2014, 13:18

I've been trying to read up on food grade diatomaceous earth (it has to be food grade as the stuff used in pools is toxic). I think it should work in killing lungworm in the gut and preventing it travelling to the lungs, but I'm not sure how effective it is once a dog already show signs of lungworm (e.g coughing)? Maybe using Panacur for 7 days would be more effective in diagnosed cases?

I found this was a useful website:

http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/diato ... earth.html
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by pixie's mum » 28 Apr 2014, 13:52

Hi
An interesting post - I have recently been concerned at all the 'drugs' I give to my dogs ranging from inoculations, worming, flea, tick etc and have just begun looking at alternatives.
I will only treat fleas if an when I see them and will use a natural garlic spray. I have sent samples of poo (sorry) to a company called wormcount to see if either dog has intestinal or lung worm - both readings came back as clear so I will not give them worm treatment and re assess on 6 months. I check for ticks regularly as part of the grooming process and have a tool ready should I find them.
I would look at the regularity and need for yearly inoculations but as I want to pet passport them I will have to comply with those regulations.
Some years ago my Rhodesian ridgeback had a nasty reaction to frontline and I have been wary of topical treatments since. The fluid got onto my leather settee and it stripped out the colour and dissolved the leather in patchs so what it does to animals skin is very worrying.
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Curious George
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Curious George » 28 Apr 2014, 14:55

We also got some of George's Advocate on the sofa and it stripped the colour out, which as you say, Pixie's mum, cannot be good!

I reported the symptoms noticed to the drug company and they got back to me straight away, but only count them as behavioural reactions, but it has apparently been registered or logged, whatever the terminology is.

If diatomaceous earth also prevents lung worm (maybe not once diagnosed) that is great. Definitely going to look further into alternatives.
Rhea & George

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iwantadog
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by iwantadog » 28 Apr 2014, 14:58

My dog had his first epileptic fit after using Advocate, I am convinced the two are linked. I wrote to the company but didn't get much joy. My dog also reacted badly to Advantix which has some of the same ingredients in it. I now use Frontline which he is fine with.
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Bid
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Bid » 28 Apr 2014, 16:29

I use DE for my dogs - I get it here ... http://www.imbaliridgebacks.co.uk/diato ... earth.html
www.dogtrekker.co.uk
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Helen & Rigby
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Helen & Rigby » 28 Apr 2014, 19:57

Rig has had advocate since he was wee. It makes his whole being smell icky for a day or two. I don't like it!

I want to make sure he is properly covered for everything. Does this de cover all worms and do I need to send off poo as well? What can I use for flees? Has anyone used Billy no mates? And is it just a case of removing any ticks or preventing them? Is that everything? :D
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Ianto!
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Ianto! » 28 Apr 2014, 22:01

Good questions Helen - I was about to ask them!
Also, isn't it ticks that cause Lyme Disease? If so, is just removing them enough?
Thanks for posting this -
Anne & Ianto x

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Bid
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Bid » 28 Apr 2014, 22:14

I believe it is only Ivermectin which is known to affect certain breeds such as collies, and that isn't used in the dog spot-on treatments as far as I am aware.

DE can be used internally or externally - if you add it to food it certainly deals with intestinal worms - opinions vary on whether it can prevent/treat lungworm though. Wormcount.com can test for lungworm though, so it might be better to test and only treat if you know it is a problem. You can use Milbemax instead of Advocate to treat lungworm, but it doesn't provide any protection against it (and may also have side -effects!). If you use DE externally it is said to repel fleas and mites, but I've not tried it. We haven't have a flea problem here yet, but they do get ticks. Having hairy dogs you can't always spot a tick which is why I prefer to use a spot-on, as they do carry Lymes disease. I've tried natural sprays but they aren't terribly effective against ticks in my experience, which is a nuisance. It's hard to decide what to do for the best isn't it! I have started to titre test rather than vaccinate regardless, but I will vaccinate if they don't have sufficient cover.
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Ianto!
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Ianto! » 28 Apr 2014, 22:24

Thanks Bid!
On a slightly lighter note - I spilt hot, black tea on the OH's Parker Knoll and that stripped the colour out... as does Ianto's slobber... though neither actually attacked the leather.
Anne & Ianto x

Chelsea2
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by Chelsea2 » 29 Apr 2014, 05:20

Ivermectin, moxidectin and milbemycin (the latter 2 being the ingredients in some spot ons and wormers) are all chemically very similar. The last 2 are said to be less toxic but still contain the same warnings for use in susceptible breeds such as collies etc.
The drug Fenbendazole, which is the active ingredient in Panacur, has been shown to be affective in the treatment of lungworm and is considered a safer alternative for susceptible breeds. The dosage required is NOT the same as for routine worming so advice from your vet is required.

As this comes up quite a lot this may be useful http://www.labradoodle.org.uk/forum/vie ... =6&t=28256

willow&kobi
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Re: Warning of giving Advocate to Labradoodles

Post by willow&kobi » 29 Apr 2014, 14:33

My question really is whether any of these flea / worm treatments need to be used as often as the vets / manufacturer's recommend. Once a month seems excessive,
I do my dogs every 3months, and they have been ok...i never liked the fact of doing it every month :(

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