students!

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mistydog
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008, 22:20

students!

Post by mistydog » 24 Nov 2010, 19:14

A little while ago my OH came home after working in a cold workshop with his friend. My OH is young, not 65 until January 2011, his friend is 68, had a quad heart by pass and has prostate cancer, my OH has been ill with ostyomyolits of the patella and still has difficult in walking. Both have worked since they were 15/16 and will stay working (pension, what a laugh). I've been working in the office all day as I do most days 'cos I'm only 64.

Have just watched the news and seen the disgusting behavour of students who are angry, what the hell have they got to be angry about. If they can't afford university then they should get a job and start at the bottom. If they are any good they will make it. Sorry no sympathy at all
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julieanne
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Re: students!

Post by julieanne » 24 Nov 2010, 20:25

I certanly dont agree with how the students who are protesting are behaving however I do support their cause.

Having a son who is currently studying his A Levels and applying for University places for next September this is very current issue for me.

In most circumstances it is no longer possible for college or school leavers to start at the bottom and work up. Most employers will not take on young people straight from college or school. When I left school in the mid 1980's there was the YTS scheme, this is no longer an option.

My son wants to become a Sports Journalist. It will cost us £54,000 for my son to start at the bottom in his chosen career.

I have contacted many papers, magazines etc as potential employers for my son and they will not take him on without the qualifications he will gain at University.

I think it is extremely easy for more mature people to judge all young people however time has moved on, we have to accept that the jobs are no longer there. My son and his friends want to be successful and be upstanding citizens and now are going to be left with huge debts as a result.

Becky_ck
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Location: Somerset

Re: students!

Post by Becky_ck » 24 Nov 2010, 21:49

I do not agree with how the minority of students who make the news for the wrong reasons are behaving. However I too support their cause. Students (and children) are our countries future, if education becomes so expensive and it puts young people off furthering their education where will the next generation of nurses, doctors, teachers, etc come from?

I am currently a mature student, I work, study for a degree, do voluntry work and look after my family. I think most students and young people work hard, and want to work hard in their chosen careers, which quite often you do need a degree for in order to start at the bottom.

I too think that times have changed drastically. Jobs are difficult to come by, houses are extortionate and first time buyers have been priced out of the market, they too will not get a pension, have to work far longer into old age and to top it all off their government lied to them about not raising student fees-I would say young people have quite a lot to be angry about as their future looks quite bleak to me.

I feel lucky that I have got through my degree with £7k of debt, but even that is a worry at the back of my mind :roll: .

Mistydog, you and your family do sound like an inspiration to have overcome such obstacles/illness and carried on working. My mum had lukemia and returned to work asap! She is my inspiration :D
Becky
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Clare
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Joined: 16 May 2009, 15:39

Re: students!

Post by Clare » 24 Nov 2010, 23:51

julieanne wrote:I certanly dont agree with how the students who are protesting are behaving however I do support their cause.

Having a son who is currently studying his A Levels and applying for University places for next September this is very current issue for me.

In most circumstances it is no longer possible for college or school leavers to start at the bottom and work up. Most employers will not take on young people straight from college or school. When I left school in the mid 1980's there was the YTS scheme, this is no longer an option.

My son wants to become a Sports Journalist. It will cost us £54,000 for my son to start at the bottom in his chosen career.

I have contacted many papers, magazines etc as potential employers for my son and they will not take him on without the qualifications he will gain at University.

I have children in the same position and I totally agree with your post - well said

I think it is extremely easy for more mature people to judge all young people however time has moved on, we have to accept that the jobs are no longer there. My son and his friends want to be successful and be upstanding citizens and now are going to be left with huge debts as a result.
Well said - I have children in similar positions and I totally agree with you. Times have moved on ............
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Saramel
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Re: students!

Post by Saramel » 24 Nov 2010, 23:53

There are lots of jobs where you just can't start at the bottom and work your way up - you just have to have the right qualifications. However, I do think that there are many ways of making University better value for society so it feels more like paying for the students' education. I graduated back in 1989 after a 4 year course and to be honest I could have done it in far less time. I can't help feeling that there should be a way of speeding things up so students spend less time at college so rack up less debt. I think that their fees should be paid for by higher taxation and it should be paid whether they stick the course out or not - the dropout/failure rate is far too high and it would make students think twice about going to Uni if they aren't going to work at it. It doesn't have to be a massive amount of tax, say 1 or 2 percent for life. Anybody wishing to leave the country who wouldn't pay the tax could either agree to pay it abroad or pay a one off lump sum to cover their costs. I really don't think it is right that anybody should start off their life in such debt and my daughter who only did one term is still paying her loan off 5 years later and it seems to get bigger every year. That is just sheer madness.

I despair of the students who cause trouble on the protests because I think it undermines a cause which is worth protesting over.
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MrsAdmin
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Re: students!

Post by MrsAdmin » 25 Nov 2010, 00:24

As a more mature member of the Forum, I can honestly say that I see this from many sides of the problems.

When I did my A Levels, back in the early 70's, girls generally did not go to University. The careers advice was either to become a teacher or join Queen Alexander's Nursing Corp :roll: because I went to Grammar School. If you went to Secondary School then you would get directed to being a typist or secretary or working in a shop or factory.

Being a tricky customer, I wanted to work in the Theatre, so went off to London and slaved for the next few years as the lowest of the low, learning a million ways to cook Spam :roll:

Five years later I was offered a place to study Performing Arts, specialising in Arts Admin, at the first course to run this. Because I had worked and paid my NI stamps for long enough, I qualified for a grant in my own working right. It was basic but I stayed within my limits and completed my course.

In those days we were given a full grant from the State, dependant on either your or your parent's income levels. Only about the top 3% of kids went to Uni then.

Whilst there I too went on marches and demos, particularly in support of equality for women and the right to walk the streets safely without fear of rape or attack (as big a problem in those days with male attitudes as it is in many places today). When I see girls passed out drunk in the streets, or screaming abuse at their 'friends', lads or the police after the pubs close, I really wonder why I bothered.

I then worked, had a child, set up my own business, and took finance qualifications, all at my own expense. I also trained as a lecturer and worked teaching students alongside running a professional arts management agency.

I decided to return to Uni to gain a Masters because I loved my subject and wanted to learn more. I had to do this studying part-time, at my own expense, and fitted in with the rest of my life and business. It meant many, many long nights reading and writing assignments whilst everyone slept because that was the time I wasn't needed and the phone didn't ring.

I eventually gave up lecturing because I felt I was just wasting my time. The students at the end, who had been studying for degree level, were far more ignorant and uninterested in their subject, than those at the atart of my teaching, who had just finished their GCSE's and were doing BTEC First and National. It was all about putting off the moment they needed to earn a living, and drama and performance was seen as a 'soft' option. We were also not allowed to fail any student's assignments because then the college or uni would not get paid by the government. :evil: The kids knew this and boy, did they play on it. As lecturers we were powerless. The kids were churned on to Uni and the tax payer picked up the bill to keep the unemployment numbers down.

As a parent paying out £24,000 to put their child through Oxford (she just went to State school but was exceptionally bright) I know all about trying to keep them debt free. We have no silver spoons in our family. I just worked my socks off to earn the money to give her the start I wanted her to have.

As a tax payer I know that the old system of grants became completely unsustainable when the figure of 50% of students going to Uni became the goal. The kids would have to be made to pay instead, and debt was OK. After all, the entire country was being run on debt, what's a bit more. Doesn't matter, does it.

Well now the pigeons have come home to roost. The kids are being shoe-horned into so called teaching institutions that are worthless, onto courses that have no merit, and end up with paper that is meaningless. Ask any employer. I know, I have a niece wanting to do this and end up with massive debts, no matter how much I tell her not to. She hasn't a clue what she wants to do, not interested in any subject and won't listen to what a nightmare this will be for the rest of her life.

As I said, I have seen it from all sides, and my advice is do not send your kid to uni if they haven't a burning passion for their subject. They are regarded as fodder to be kept off the stats by every government. Bang on every door until they get the training they really need for something they long to do. Otherwise they are wasting their time and money.

As for the 'students' demonstrating, well Rent-a-Mob was around in the 60s and 70s too.
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bedlingtondoodle
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Re: students!

Post by bedlingtondoodle » 25 Nov 2010, 00:38

julieanne wrote:In most circumstances it is no longer possible for college or school leavers to start at the bottom and work up. Most employers will not take on young people straight from college or school. When I left school in the mid 1980's there was the YTS scheme, this is no longer an option.

My son wants to become a Sports Journalist. It will cost us £54,000 for my son to start at the bottom in his chosen career.

I think that the YTS scheme is still available under a different name they now have apprentice schemes for hundreds of different trades.

I do not think that it fair on the genral tax payers to subsidise the thousands of uni courses that are available. The one good thing about the hike in tutition fees is that we will loose courses like a degree in Man utd or an ology in David Beckham......

I am not trying to cause offence. I have worked my way through everything I have ever done so have very little sympathy for the kids who choose to go to uni and then twist about how much it has cost them or how much it is going to cost them....university is not a god given right, it has only been the last few years when kids think it their right to go. If you can't affoard it don't go.

With a country facing massive debts is it fair for those working on lower incomes to subsidise people through their studies in the vague hope that all uni students go on to massivley well paid job and maybe pay enough in taxes to help us out of this crisis ( I think that about half of all uni students will ever achieve this)

I certainly don't mean to be personal about this I am talking about the situation in general not anyones dreams and aspirations and I hope that your son follows his dreams and they work out for him. :D
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annvinton
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Re: students!

Post by annvinton » 25 Nov 2010, 08:58

A lot of good things have been said on here, most of them I agree with.
We do need to get back to the idea that young people actually study worthwhile subjects and are encouraged to stick out the course.
One thing I would like to know, and forgive me if I've missed it somehow:

Has the government said how much it COSTS to provide a university place so that we can see what percentage of that cost will be met by the student and how much is left for us to pay?

I would like to put some kind of perspective on this issue, but don't know how to,

Ann & Ben

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Saramel
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Re: students!

Post by Saramel » 25 Nov 2010, 12:55

Mrs Admin, being a lady of a certain age, I agree with much of what you are saying! I also paid for my post grad courses and I have to say I don't think I always got what I was paying for so can see it from the other side.

One thing I do think is that sending immature people to Uni is probably designed to make it all a bit of a nonsense. It would make far more sense to get our kids working in the real world so they have a chance to see how lucky they are to actually go to Uni and make a real go of it to give them a chance to have success in their working life. I also think that most kids don't know the variety of jobs there are out in the real world so they can't really be passionate about something they don't know they can try for.

My son decided not to go to Uni because he really did not know what he wanted to do nor did he think he'd work very hard when he got there. He worked for a year in a Fish and Chip shop which he hated but now he has a 'career' job he really appreciates it which is a bonus as far as I am concerned because I really worried about his lack of ambition and work ethic.
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linny
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Re: students!

Post by linny » 25 Nov 2010, 13:10

My kids (all four) finished their A. levels and then went off to work their way around the world, they did a lot of traveling , working their way around Australia, America, Europe, SE Asia and eventually returned to the UK well rounded and with the traveling bug well and truly out of their system.
They also knew what they really wanted to do with the rest of their lives.
There is a lot to be said for studying for a degree after experiencing life first.
Having said that, they are now in their chosen careers with hefty debts to repay :roll: :roll:

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Liz!
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Re: students!

Post by Liz! » 25 Nov 2010, 13:41

It's a hard choice. Daughter left uni last year after volunteering while at Uni at a charity working in sustainable systems, as she wanted to work in this sort of area. She started work for them straight after uni and now has applied for and received funding for a project which she is heading, and we are very proud of her. But she has a massive debt and hardly any income and her b/f who has just left uni, has no hint of a job in his sphere yet despite many applications. He is going to volunteer soon too. I can't see her ever paying it of if she continues on this job route. She did not know what she wanted to do on applying for Uni but she did know the subject she wanted to study - and in my view, that is what Uni should be for, studying something you are at least interested in to show you are capable of independent and intelligent thought and input and use the time to realise what it is you'd like to do.

But that does depend on knowing what it is you DO want to do at Uni. I think the American model is a much better idea, they go for 4 years and start off studying a huge range of subjects and only narrow it down when they have tried several things out, and they can change their major as they go. But over there, although it is fnded by the students, there is a massive amount more sponsorship, where the kids work for their sponsor for a few years to py back the money and then they can start off on their own. i think this is a good idea.

My son is also just doing his A levels and has only ever been interested n acting but having had loads of chaperones who were out of work actors during his professional acting jobs, decided not to become one as an adult! So his experience is all acting, so that is what he's doing with English at uni. He has no idea what job, but knows that he must go asap to Uni or we will be unable to afford to send him.

I really feel for them both having this debt over them, probably forever.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read ~ Groucho Marx

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lizziesmum
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Re: students!

Post by lizziesmum » 25 Nov 2010, 14:08

I agree with Linny,my son went to uni at 18 but dropped out because of financial pressures.He started work cleaning windows at Heathrow,toilets in Leicester and onto Toyota,Derby.Hes ended up at Crewe working for Bentley.
Hes got on really well and at 32 has a very good life.Theres only one way to get on in life and thats put some hard work in.Hes now in 2nd year of a degree course.(a bit late)
Im not saying the students are wrong to protest its a free country.
I was active in CND,anti Vietnam war and civil rights movement in the 60.s
Great memories of marching from Trafalgar Square to Hyde Park,placards,chanting,upsetting the police,anarchy.
So glad I did it all,lifes so quiet when your older.
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misrule
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Location: West Sussex

Re: students!

Post by misrule » 25 Nov 2010, 20:12

julieanne wrote:My son wants to become a Sports Journalist.
Hi, Julieanne --

A personal message is heading your way. It's the doodle careers advice service :D

Cheers

Mark

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